nbohr1more on 6/1/2015 at 04:39
I think Melan has it pretty well covered but I think everyone is missing part of the picture. The new blood who would be making missions for T2 or TDM are off making single mission "mods" for Amnesia (essential survival horror FMs), and on the other side we have this HUGE Skyrim / Oblivion mod scene which probably has crossover to the players who would've dug Thief. We need to be more active at Frictional and Bethesda forums and get these folks to follow the breadcrumb back to TTLG. We need to extoll FMs on Steam forums, etc. I've sadly fallen behind on my Moddb promotion antics but I can say that we saw marked user influx when certain inflection points like new TDM mission releases were promoted there. It just takes a little elbow grease, there are so many games out there now you need to keep posting to cut through the noise. By rights, if we posted Moddb screens every time a new WIP screen were posted to the "What are you working on" threads we'd look like the most active mod project ever. That would stir the nest a bit.
Petike the Taffer on 6/1/2015 at 05:24
If it's any consolation, I want to get into making TDM missions. Soon. :o :)
I was toying with the idea of finally retrying to learn DromED once New Dark came out and got into the respectable state it is in now, but I am still rather wary of DromEDing. Not to sound disrespectful, but even with these new upgrades, it's an old and somewhat user-unfriendly editor and its learning curve seems just too steep and demanding to me. So, at least for now, I've chosen Dark Radiant, as it's mostly more flexible and has more of a purpose-built feel to it. Not to bemoan DromED, though. All my respect for the people who kept making hundreds of excellent and compex missions years and years before New Dark's release. As I've also played and enjoyed almost every single TDS mission, I want to thank the tireless little team dabbling in T3 Ed too. That editor is even less user-friendly and was released to us only after much clammoring, so the fact that we've had plenty of authors making nice and memorable TDS missions is deeply heartwarming. You're all awesome ! :cool:
Speaking of The Dark Mod, I have to agree that TDM authors deserve more respect and encouragement. While I was skeptical for years whether the project would ever get finished, once it entered this decade and I saw what state it was in, I knew it was in good hands and wouldn't die or dwindle. If I can do my little part in helping it grow in the future, I'll gladly try such an undertaking. (Though I also have one other rather major mod project going already, so I'll have to divide my time thoughtfully, not to mention the time needed for my work, other hobbies and the occassional relaxing.)
Some of you have mentioned that TTLG and some other fan forums are perhaps too selective or too overly critical of (certain) fan mission efforts or projects. I partly agree with that sentiment, insofar as we need to find new and less stuffy ways to draw people's attention to creating FMs, as well as improving the current state of new and classic FM coverage. I remember that several years ago, this site and several others did a lot more reviews of missions, as well as overviews and retrospectives on various types of missions (by theme, genre, etc.). This helped increase reader interest, and to quote myself as an example, it even brought my attention to several FMs I would otherwise have overlooked or barely stumbled upon.
SneakyGuy101 on 6/1/2015 at 05:28
Quote Posted by nbohr1more
The new blood who would be making missions for T2 or TDM
What about Thief 1/Gold? Oh what just because most missions are released for Thief 2 you just assumed that no one wants to make Thief 1/Gold missions anymore? Why is it that everyone just assumes that everyone uses Thief 2 and only Thief 2? It pisses me right off sometimes :mad:
I'm sorry but some things just set me off sometimes :tsktsk:
Tannar on 6/1/2015 at 07:29
Perhaps tone it down there a bit, SG. I could be wrong, but you may have misunderstood what nbohr1more meant and may be making something out of nothing. I took what he said to mean: "T2 or TDM *for example* ... " His point was that potential new modders for Thief are off making missions for other games. I don't think he was speaking only of T2, even though that's the one he mentioned.
Judith on 6/1/2015 at 10:02
For the record, as long as we're talking level design stuff (placing brushes, texturing, static meshes, lightning, AI etc.) TDS editor isn't hard to work with. It's Unreal Engine 2.x editor, so it's 1000 times more accessible than Dromed, and I find it faster to work with than Radiant. Problems start with custom features and content. At this point it's essential to eliminate 3dsmax 5.1 as mandatory tool for creating materials and exporting static meshes (.mlb and .tim files). Otherwise, number of lights per scene scales with the hardware (probably to some point, built-in performance tools are still useful in that regard), you can use textures up to 4096 px, etc. Things like number of properties per map stay the same though, and swimmable water is still a no-no (in fact it always will be, but that shouldn't stop you from creating some decent maps).
Also, after seeing Dale's tutorials on taming DromEd (excellent work btw.) I thought that next big thing T2 needs is not another graphics update. If we want to attract new mappers, it's the editor that needs general overhaul. Full mouse support in viewports, more wysiwyg tools, etc.
IMO the biggest problem for FMs right now is that with outdated OM resources every FM project is like starting your own mod or total conversion. (I like the idea of using ModDB to promote your stuff in that regard.) The only thing that's left from originals is AI, and even that needs reskinning to better match your environment. That's tons of work and it is discouraging.
Ricebug on 6/1/2015 at 10:15
Quote Posted by Petike the Taffer
...even with these new upgrades, [Dromed is] an old and somewhat user-unfriendly editor and its learning curve seems just too steep and demanding to me.
That may have been true at one time. For those few games that ship with an editor today, you'd better have an IQ of 160 or better, a firm grip on third-party software, and a bunch of coding ability.
Oh, yeah--a stable relationship with your significant other is almost a prerequisite; unless you want to come home one day and see your stuff in a cardboard box waiting for you. We're talking some serious learning curve.
FireMage on 6/1/2015 at 11:12
The mission Stats for 2015 will be IMO a great UP for the community.
With my contest and many unbelivables missions incoming, I think that the stats will better ^^
IMO, Dromed is old yeah, but not thrown into the trashbin, even if many mappers and gamers love good graphics and perfect engine easy to use, do not forget the retro gaming! :) It's a fashion thing these days! So, I keep to be optimistic!
And, whatever? Visual is important, yes, but everybody got a plot in mind! So everybody can Dromedit. The mission can be ungly I don't care at least I'll have fun with the mission! ;) No, I'm not trying to troll with the eternal debate between the plot and the visual!
I just want to say that EVERYBODY can try Dromed and create a mission!
The goal is just to have fun because the point that many mappers forget sometimes is the fact that Thief is a Game, something to dream and relax yourself, and Dromed is your ticket to make them true and share your imagination with the community, the fact that you are not a professionnal mapper working for somebody but yourself. (The community too of course, but you work for it as volunteer so you have no orders or restrictions ^^ A good way to work peacefuly)
The lonely thing to do is to consider Dromed as a hobby and take your time with test missions to learn how to work with the numerous deep and mysterious sides of the engine.
That's why I think that these low amount of map is just because of a bad period as it happens... But someday this amount may change with new mappers etc.
That why, I got no shame to support all mappers, The newest as the oldest. I support them all and I don't mind If some seems to create something better than another one because the most important point is FUN! :)
skacky on 6/1/2015 at 11:43
Quote Posted by Judith
Also, after seeing Dale's tutorials on taming DromEd (excellent work btw.) I thought that next big thing T2 needs is not another graphics update. If we want to attract new mappers, it's the editor that needs general overhaul. Full mouse support in viewports, more wysiwyg tools, etc.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing a couple of days ago myself. DromEd isn't particularly hard to master but its interface is very ancient and archaic and quite difficult to work with if you're not used to it. I also make levels for Quake using an editor called (
http://kristianduske.com/trenchbroom/) Trenchbroom which is easily one of the best editors I've ever used so far. It's fast and easy to use, and something similar for Thief could be amazing. Granted it doesn't have 2D views, but that will change with the upcoming 2.0 version. The thing that bothers me the most with DromEd really is the absolute lack of vertex manipulation, so making complex architecture can be an absolute pain in the bottom sometimes. That often results in approximative brush laying with visible seams and sometimes weird architecture for example, which is something you rarely see when you can manipulate vertices.
nbohr1more on 6/1/2015 at 13:57
Quote Posted by SneakyGuy101
What about Thief 1/Gold? Oh what just because most missions are released for Thief 2 you just assumed that no one wants to make Thief 1/Gold missions anymore? Why is it that everyone just assumes that everyone uses Thief 2 and only Thief 2? It pisses me right off sometimes :mad:
I'm sorry but some things just set me off sometimes :tsktsk:
Oh, I love T1\TG missions! NewDark sorta makes the distinction between the two somewhat irrelevant but no offense intended. I was just referring to classic
Thief 1\2 overall. I can't speak to TDS editing but a few TDM team members like Orbweaver tinkered with it and found it to be unsatisfactory for various reasons.
I guess it's a matter of preference but we've gotten at least circumstantial indications that Dark Radiant is a tad easier to work with. This will sorta lead into my
next point... Dark Radiant can export to a few static model formats to so you could cheat on T3ed and build some nice models in Dark Radiant then import them
into TDS. Killhour even did the reverse, he built some brushwork in Unreal editor and imported into TDM...
(
http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/10808-who-says-mappers-have-to-be-monogomous-cheating-on-dark-radiant-with-unreal-ed/)
Quote Posted by skacky
Yes, I was thinking the same thing a couple of days ago myself. DromEd isn't particularly hard to master but its interface is very ancient and archaic and quite difficult to work with if you're not used to it. I also make levels for Quake using an editor called (
http://kristianduske.com/trenchbroom/) Trenchbroom which is easily one of the best editors I've ever used so far. It's fast and easy to use, and something similar for Thief could be amazing. Granted it doesn't have 2D views, but that will change with the upcoming 2.0 version. The thing that bothers me the most with DromEd really is the absolute lack of vertex manipulation, so making complex architecture can be an absolute pain in the bottom sometimes. That often results in approximative brush laying with visible seams and sometimes weird architecture for example, which is something you rarely see when you can manipulate vertices.
As above, I believe that NewDark will allow static model importing... so some modeling work could be shifted to Dark Radiant... What would be cool is if we could export in NewDark brush format.
Not sure Greebo would want to take that on but Dark Radiant does have a script plugin interface that has been used to make the ASE exporter so it should be possible...
Petike the Taffer on 6/1/2015 at 14:14
Quote Posted by SneakyGuy101
What about Thief 1/Gold? Oh what just because most missions are released for Thief 2 you just assumed that no one wants to make Thief 1/Gold missions anymore? Why is it that everyone just assumes that everyone uses Thief 2 and only Thief 2? It pisses me right off sometimes :mad:
I'm sorry but some things just set me off sometimes :tsktsk:
I have never played a T1/TG FM before, but that was due to technical issues. I hope I'll finally be able to do so nowadays, as it seems less of a challenge now.
Of course, it's only natural that T1/TG FMs are not as plentiful as they used to be. They peaked in the early years, before T2 was even released or before it was tested in DromED enough to get its own growing back catalogue of missions. I am not surprised that many people jumped ship for TMA and left TDP with a more slowly growing number of missions. The engine is so similar in both of the first two installments that the temptation to use the installment with more starting content as a basis for an FM has always been there.
The fact that people are still making FMs for the first game shows that they do care and haven't given up on it. I think you shouldn't fear that much.
Quote Posted by Ricebug
That may have been true at one time. For those few games that ship with an editor today, you'd better have an IQ of 160 or better, a firm grip on third-party software, and a bunch of coding ability.
Oh, yeah--a stable relationship with your significant other is almost a prerequisite; unless you want to come home one day and see your stuff in a cardboard box waiting for you. We're talking some serious learning curve.
Hehe, I know what you mean. :cheeky: But I view any sort of modding as a long-term matter and a hobby that's certainly not for impatient people.
Quote Posted by nbohr1more
snippet
Excellent post, has some great recommendations.
Quote Posted by R Soul
The current explanations make a lot of sense but what about the difficulty of getting dark games to look good on LCD monitors?
Erm, they've always looked nice on my LCD monitor... :weird: Don't know what the fuss is about. :confused:
