Judith on 6/1/2015 at 15:33
Quote Posted by skacky
Yes, I was thinking the same thing a couple of days ago myself. DromEd isn't particularly hard to master but its interface is very ancient and archaic and quite difficult to work with if you're not used to it. I also make levels for Quake using an editor called Trenchbroom which is easily one of the best editors I've ever used so far. It's fast and easy to use, and something similar for Thief could be amazing. Granted it doesn't have 2D views, but that will change with the upcoming 2.0 version. The thing that bothers me the most with DromEd really is the absolute lack of vertex manipulation, so making complex architecture can be an absolute pain in the bottom sometimes. That often results in approximative brush laying with visible seams and sometimes weird architecture for example, which is something you rarely see when you can manipulate vertices.
Using mouse for viewport camera movement and vertex editing should be included in DromEd as fast as possible. We're talking about work done in seconds instead of minutes, a basic feature and a huge time-saver. Also, I agree that Trench broom looks awesome. I'd like to have at least one 2D window though, seeing things on a flat grid plane make me feel in control of things ;)
Quote Posted by nbohr1more
Oh, I love T1\TG missions! NewDark sorta makes the distinction between the two somewhat irrelevant but no offense intended. I was just referring to classic
Thief 1\2 overall. I can't speak to TDS editing but a few TDM team members like Orbweaver tinkered with it and found it to be unsatisfactory for various reasons.
I guess it's a matter of preference but we've gotten at least circumstantial indications that Dark Radiant is a tad easier to work with. This will sorta lead into my
next point... Dark Radiant can export to a few static model formats to so you could cheat on T3ed and build some nice models in Dark Radiant then import them
into TDS. Killhour even did the reverse, he built some brushwork in Unreal editor and imported into TDM...
(
http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/10808-who-says-mappers-have-to-be-monogomous-cheating-on-dark-radiant-with-unreal-ed/)
That's interesting idea, but if I understand correctly, you're using UnrealEd or Radiant as modeling software for one another. Since it's still about making meshes, it's faster and more convenient to use Blender, 3dsmax, Modo. Maya etc., for they have better modeling and mapping tools anyway. Judging from FMs, there's is substantially different approach to design too. AFAIK, TDM is still heavy on BSP, while Unreal Engines never had BSP smoothing for example, or such tools for brushes. BSP was always for blocking out the space and filling it with modular meshes, then using instance materials, lightning and unique meshes to make it look more organic. This trend is present in game industry for at least a decade now. Unfortunately, if you want to work alone, you need to be both good environment/gameplay/lightning designer and excellent modeler/texture artist. Of course, you can always team up with others :) In theory, T3Ed is OK for such approach, but the necessity of having 3dsmax 5.1 as mandatory importer/exporter is a major drawback (no other versions work and you'll have to be insane to use it as your primary modeling tool these days).
Melan on 6/1/2015 at 15:35
Quote Posted by nbohr1more
I think Melan has it pretty well covered but I think everyone is missing part of the picture. The new blood who would be making missions for T2 or TDM are off making single mission "mods" for Amnesia (essential survival horror FMs), and on the other side we have this HUGE Skyrim / Oblivion mod scene which probably has crossover to the players who would've dug Thief.
Good point - mod support for the TES series is incredible (although some of its grimier corners are creepy in a way the Thief series never experienced).
Thief's big draw is its episodic structure, which has already contributed to our existing community. No matter the technical and other difficulties, it is still much easier to create a self-contained episode than a larger mod. This advantage can also draw new blood to editing.
Finally, wow, Trenchbroom looks incredible. I don't know if the real deal is as good as the intro video seems to show, but I suddenly want to make Quake 1 missions... and I haven't even played Quake in ages.
skacky on 6/1/2015 at 16:45
Trenchbroom is really really good. Creating brushes is just like Lego, really. You can clone, move and rotate them extremely easily which means you can create scenes very quickly. The editor also has a 3D grid so you don't get too lost. It's certainly disorientating at first though. :p
It does have a couple of flaws which hopefully will be ironed out with the next version.
- For one you have to know the entity keyvalues' names by heart if you want to edit them, and you have to manually type these since they're not present by default. Editors like Hammer or Radiant already have these keyvalues available upon creation.
- You can sometimes get drifting vertices (like an offset of 0.001 unit) and that offset is enough to cause micro-leaks, so you have to always snap your brushes. It's something I noticed was also present in DarkRadiant when I make TDM maps.
- The lack of 2D views can sometimes be difficult for making very complex architecture (especially if it uses 45° or 22.5° stuff), so I usually have to use another editor with 2D views and then import my brushes into Trenchbroom.
But really that's about it, and these two issues will most probably be touched upon in the next version (2D views will be in the next version, that's for sure). It's really a joy to work with.
Petike the Taffer on 6/1/2015 at 19:03
Quote Posted by skacky
You can sometimes get drifting vertices (like an offset of 0.001 unit) and that offset is enough to cause micro-leaks, so you have to always snap your brushes. It's something I noticed was also present in DarkRadiant when I make TDM maps.
Ah yes, the old "Avoid leaks !" problem. Yes, that's a major concern for misions made in Dark Radiant as well.
SneakyGuy101 on 6/1/2015 at 19:17
Yeah I'm sorry for the little misunderstanding :eww:
Sometimes I take things the wrong way especially little things :p
Petike the Taffer on 6/1/2015 at 22:49
Quote Posted by SneakyGuy101
Yeah I'm sorry for the little misunderstanding :eww:
Sometimes I take things the wrong way especially little things :p
Hey, I didn't find your remarks rude. :D We can all get a little frustrated or misunderstand each other at times. ;)
Tannar on 6/1/2015 at 23:31
Yep, no worries.
Bulgarian_Taffer on 11/1/2015 at 01:09
So, to share some of my thoughts.
I've tried DarkRadiant. Gave up twice, although I'm sure it's a good editor. However, the big "no" here is that it's... just a new software.
When I see a cool building on the street, I often catch myself wondering how to build it in Dromed, and I quickly have everything in my head - cubes, wedges, pyramids - the big picture is already there.
With DarkRadiant, an editor will certainly need a period of acclimation. Sure - you can learn basics of editing and creating a working mission within 1-3 days. However, speaking from my experience, I will need up from several weeks to three months in order to get new habits kicking in and actually making it.
And I remember how annoyed I got when MS released their new Office suit and I'm outright angry with new versions of GIMP that force me to change my habits!!!
With DromEd - it's easy - brush here, brush there... because I know the software. When I joined TTLG, I was a whiny teenager (like Erin, but male :P). I was still going to school. Meanwhile I got accepted in University, finished University, got my B.Sc. in 2009, my M.Sc. in 2011. And now I'm working on my PhD and have a job. Meanwhile, I got diagnosed with tachycardia and hypertension, published two books and I'm arranging my wedding that's going to be a fact in April.
I guess that many people are following in my steps - they were younger and didn't have as many responsibilities as they have now.
In 2006 I had access to a personal computer about twice a week. Yet I released a lot of missions.
This year I barely got two weeks of free time...
Many of the dromedders got older and surely can't afford the time to learn a new editor.
Now, about criticism...
I admit - I have a problem here... This - despite the fact I never take my work too seriously. Or at least I tell myself so... Yet, when somebody tells me something bad, it hurts and I can remember about this for years!!! It's like that : If somebody likes my work, I'm fine with that... If somebody doesn't like it, but is polite and respectful - I am OK with that. And I won't change my opinion about the person an inch towards the red line...
However, if somebody is mean and disrespectful, well... I do take it personally. For the sake of God, we are trying to be good in our work, whether we're doing it for money or not.
I'm sure that many authors here will be OK with criticism, if it's presented in a proper way. If somebody doesn't like it - fine. We understand that, we can't change people... But there's a certain line that has to be drawn - there should be a degree of respect towards other people's work, even if we don't agree with it, or like it.
Ricebug on 11/1/2015 at 15:11
Quote Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer
I admit - I have a problem here... This - despite the fact I never take my work too seriously. Or at least I tell myself so... Yet, when somebody tells me something bad, it hurts and I can remember about this for years!!! It's like that : If somebody likes my work, I'm fine with that... If somebody doesn't like it, but is polite and respectful - I am OK with that. And I won't change my opinion about the person an inch towards the red line...
However, if somebody is mean and disrespectful, well... I do take it personally. For the sake of God, we are trying to be good in our work, whether we're doing it for money or not.
I'm sure that many authors here will be OK with criticism, if it's presented in a proper way. If somebody doesn't like it - fine. We understand that, we can't change people... But there's a certain line that has to be drawn - there should be a degree of respect towards other people's work, even if we don't agree with it, or like it.
I've played all your missions, BT, and rate them pretty high. So I'm not sure where the grief is coming from or to what end. If it's coming from a beta-tester, you pretty much have to suck it up. After all, you "hired" them to tear your stuff apart. And it bears repeating that the beta process is the most important part of the process, since it ensures that nasty comments later on down the road can be typically shrugged off.
This is merely one of the pitfalls of being part of a community environment. Not like your commercial game developers, who actually pay people to beta-test the games. But it's very clinical and regimented. The comments and such relate specifically to release dates and if a player's feedback justifies the extra work or can it be relegated to a version update. You can see this when buying a brand-new game...there's typically an update to load before you can begin.
In our little Thief universe, however, where you have the unshaven masses, you're bound to get some negative and not-so-useful feedback. There are always a few idiots in any forum who get off on jabbing and stabbing. It's easy to let those comments roll off your back. Don't give up because of one or two snide remarks. After all, they too can dust off their Dromed and try to do better.
Bulgarian_Taffer on 11/1/2015 at 15:23
Oh no, I didn't mean betatesters. Betatesters here are very gentle, and we all know who're the ones who regularly test our missions - they've turned into professionals already in this field.
No, it's OK with them pointing mistakes - in fact, through their eyes I am seeing things I never saw. And it turned that a person who can assemble cubes, wedges and cylinders in order to create something architecturally good doesn't always see the problems.
So I'm extremely satisfied with my testers. And although I can do something with DromEd, looks like I cannot be a good tester... I've tried testing Jason Otto's missions and I think Yandros, or nicked missions - not sure- and I failed miserably as a tester, not seeing things.
