Ricebug on 11/1/2015 at 19:07
Yeah, I was pretty sure it wasn't the beta testers to which you were referring.
WretchedIntruder on 5/2/2015 at 13:19
I've been reading over this post and find it pretty impressive how the "elder" authors are still inspired enough to try to not only keep the FM works active, but to also offer their knowledge to work with those who are novice/potential beginners. I attempted a Dromed mission long ago, and although I did not finish it gave me GREAT respect for the works that have been put out over the years. Even the smallest, sometimes clunky missions require much,much work and I appreciate that as a fan. That being said, I want to speak as a fan with a tiny bit of Dromed experience (which I think is the case for many players). I consider myself a seasoned player, and over time I have seen two things happening more and more. Visually, these missions in the last few years have surpassed anything I would have dreamed to see in a Fan Mission if you had shown me years back. The mods, textures, enhancements have taken the art of thief-ery (terrible pun) to new extremes. This has a bit of a bad side, or more so a sad side for us who have been a Thief player since it was first introduced. The visuals from the original Thief, and even Thief 2 are disappearing. When you play some of the recent FMs, it's pretty much a new game. The basics are there to remind you it IS a Theif mission, but if it weren't for the familiar voices and old school sound effects, it's a whole new world. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the new visuals that authors have given us, but after one mission play, I get over my shock and awe and start focusing on structure and content of the story line. That's where I think part of the slip has gone. Although there are many recent FMs with good story lines, there are just as many that are although visually impressive, they have no tangible content when it comes to the story. To me, it's not the visuals that keep me coming back to play the older missions again and again, but the characters, the plot, and they are quests, journeys. Not just a shopping list of difficultly hidden items. Yes, I know this can be taken as criticism. That's okay, but I hope you can see in that criticism, my love for the game, and support for its future with the Thief Community.
That being said, it was mentioned how potential Dromed/NewDark authors might be too intimidated by the advancements to give it a try. From my perspective, that's true. There are so many aspects to building a mission, it can be overwhelming. What about one of the willing, more seasoned of the authors were to reach out to a few willing beginners and assign parts of mission building to each of them. A small mission, that is put together by a group of us, to learn, discuss, interact, and share the success of building a mission. Not only would it be less intimidating to start on just a few areas, it would encourage newer members to interact more on a personal level with the Theif community, and that can't be all bad. I'm sure many of the elder authors get together all of the time. Just remember, you guys are to mission building what The Beatles were to rock and roll. A silly analogy, but you are the ones who have set the set the standard for the rest to follow. The Komags, Christines, Haplos, Ottos, (you get me) are some of the authors whose missions I find myself going back to play again and again. I would think as an author, it can be flattering to hear someone saying they've played your FM for the 10th time and find it just as great and impressive as the first.
I know there will be a few to rush to criticism, regurgitating the same arguments about my kinds of posts. But the authors know constructive criticism by now, and if it helps in giving a different perspective and maybe even a new idea, I'll be more than happy to take a few punches. (Below the belt, please.)
SneakyGuy101 on 5/2/2015 at 13:52
@WretchedIntruder- I totally agree with your opinion on the matter. It's true that the dromed veterans have shown what great works they can do with not only their level design but also storytelling in their missions. They're great because of that and it's great for us new dromeders (even though I've been at for 3 years) to learn from their missions. I myself have learnt a lot on what to do and what not to do with my mission from experiencing these FM's from the many veteran authors who have been around longer than us newcomers. But there are things that still discourage us like having to keep up with going beyond the limits. This is because with all the fanciful missions such as soul tears latest 'Keeper of Infinity' look awesome and I truly respect artists who make amazing and outstanding work. But at the same time I feel like this sort of in a way makes newcomers like myself get affected in a way that makes us discouraged about our own mission. Be it not getting as much praise or reviews, not getting our missions as noticed, putting off projects that weren't as outstanding, etc. These are all things that lead to discouragement. It isn't those artists whom have outstanding missions faults. It's just that it makes newcomers feel like they need to amp it up a lot. That can be overwhelming for some and cause them to even sometimes abandon their own missions. All of that just pulls away from the real quality of missions which is the FM's ability to tell the story of the mission itself. You don't need to have "HD" textures or super high quality custom resources to make a great mission at all really. You could make an awesome mission using just stock resources just like the original missions. You catch my drift? :D But with NewDark and how there's so much more you can do that makes it harder to make a mission like that because it might not be "going to the limit". To me the term going to the limit is just a load of crap to make newcomers overwhelmed and to make them think that they need to be super fancy with their missions when really in all reality it's more about the story that matters or should I say it's more about the quality than the quantity. That's not to say being fanciful with your missions is a bad thing. But if taken the wrong way it could make an artist become overwhelmed by trying to be up to par which is what I used to be like. It's really in all reality better to start small like I did with "The Serpentine Amulet" and then work your way up to bigger projects like my upcoming one "A Thief's Pawn".
nickie on 5/2/2015 at 17:02
Quote Posted by WretchedIntruder
I know there will be a few to rush to criticism, regurgitating the same arguments about my kinds of posts. But the authors know constructive criticism by now, and if it helps in giving a different perspective and maybe even a new idea, I'll be more than happy to take a few punches. (Below the belt, please.)
As you haven't said anything remotely objectionable, there'll be no need for punches above or below the belt.
Xorak on 6/2/2015 at 05:07
Quote Posted by WretchedIntruder
There are so many aspects to building a mission, it can be overwhelming. What about one of the willing, more seasoned of the authors were to reach out to a few willing beginners and assign parts of mission building to each of them. A small mission, that is put together by a group of us, to learn, discuss, interact, and share the success of building a mission.
Something like this was in fact (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133519) recently started in the Editor's Guild, but sadly it never gained much traction. I'm always willing to help anyone who asks for help though. I know it might be the wrong thing to say, but in my experience only you can choose to push onwards in order to satisfy your desire to make a mission, and whatever encouragement you may get from people here cannot be enough to drive you to work for months on a mission.
You mention yourself that the story is the most important thing, so the advancements that NewDark offers (which really are not fundamentally groundbreaking from a design standpoint) should come second anyways. If you go by this (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144811) poll and unscientifically extrapolate the results, half the players have stated that they generally prefer the stock textures. So don't even worry about it, and focus instead on creating a good experience filled with the components that make up a unique Thief level.
I agree that the original Thief 2 atmosphere might be lost by the use of newer textures, but after 800+ missions, that core set of textures (to me) unfortunately becomes stale and the very release of more and more FMs unfortunately forces new graphical enhancements. It takes a genius to overcome that tired staleness of seeing the exact same wall used in 20,000 places or more.
Quote Posted by WretchedIntruder
I'm sure many of the elder authors get together all of the time.
This would be very cool if it was true. (Maybe I'm just not invited) :o
WretchedIntruder on 6/2/2015 at 12:19
You can count me in if such a group project ever comes together. There are many more tutorials out there with every aspect of mission building, which wasn't the case years ago when I tried. Still, you can tell by the many pages of posts, that direct input from an experienced author is essential. I thought of exploring if I had the experience to be a beta tester, but 'm not sure what it takes to be such. Although I feel confident on giving input on things like map layouts, gameplay difficulties and such, I'm not experienced with brushes, lighting adjusting and issues like that.
In fact, I've been exploring those ideas and plan on posting a few questions shortly in The Editor's Guild. Maybe I'll even play with NewDark. I hear it's much more user friendly than DromEd.
Yandros on 6/2/2015 at 12:34
Quote Posted by WretchedIntruder
Maybe I'll even play with NewDark. I hear it's much more user friendly than DromEd.
NewDark is an update to the original Dark engine. You still have Dromed to contend with as the editor, but yes, it is in fact much better than the old version of Dromed. Much more stable and loads of new features.
nickie on 6/2/2015 at 13:03
Quote Posted by WretchedIntruder
I thought of exploring if I had the experience to be a beta tester, but 'm not sure what it takes to be such.
(
http://shalebridgecradle.co.uk/testing/faq.php?sid=5f802d236c92a470d11d48d315ad6cfb#f20) Everything you always wanted to know about beta testing. It's always worth trying it out. It's not for everyone because it can take a lot of time and after testing something a dozen times, it can get a little tedious. But it can also be a lot of fun. :)
Soul Tear on 6/2/2015 at 14:03
Quote Posted by SneakyGuy101
This is because with all the fanciful missions such as soul tears latest 'Keeper of Infinity' look awesome and I truly respect artists who make amazing and outstanding work. But at the same time I feel like this sort of in a way makes newcomers like myself get affected in a way that makes us discouraged about our own mission.
I am also a novice ;)
I observe and analyze the modern games. Thief 2014 is an excellent school for any novice.
Dev_Anj on 1/10/2015 at 05:31
Most of the reasons for the number of missions dropping has been covered already, but one of the major reasons is "the circle of ambitions." As some people have pointed out, the expectations for a fan mission have been raised with time, so authors often feel the need to make grandiose levels with a lot of detail and with custom stuff sometimes. As a result, they begin to think that what they made wasn't good enough and spend lots of time just trying to perfect it. It's either that, or them not getting enough time to finish up their levels because the sheer scale and ambition of those demand time that isn't available.
The one solution to this would be getting new comers to learn the editor with a comprehensive, updated tutorial and convincing them that small or medium sized missions that can provide some simple but interesting objectives and a decent storyline will be just as appreciated as the famous huge missions here. Dale_'s ongoing video tutorial is a good example of a tutorial that could help in this matter.
I apologize for digging up this thread, I just wanted to weigh in.
