Scots Taffer on 7/11/2008 at 01:41
Again, the point.
Fafhrd on 7/11/2008 at 03:47
Quote Posted by Papy
Ok, you'll then have to explain to me how games, music or any form of art can remove my "free will"...
The second you start playing a game your free will is compromised. You have to follow the game's rules in order to play it. Which is the crux of BioShock's attempted meta-commentary.
Do you know what I think the real ending to BioShock is? The secret ending that nobody did? Quitting out of the game and uninstalling it rather than inserting the gene key thing to stop Rapture from blowing up. A Man Chooses.
Papy on 9/11/2008 at 17:39
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
The second you start playing a game your free will is compromised.
Unless you are just trying to win an Internet argument, it seems to me you are confusing freedom with free will. Having external constraint does not "compromise" my free will in any way. Not being able to fly does not mean I'm a puppet controlled by someone else. (By the way, I have no reason to believe the world is not deterministic so I believe the concept of free will is just an illusion... but as I guess a philosophical discussion about free will is not what you had in mind, I stay at a superficial level)
Ok, let's go back from the start... cartbarf acknowledge that the cutscene got the point of having no free will across. But he said that it would have been more effective if the game "psychologically manipulated the player into performing the act with just as little free will as his character". What the hell does that mean?
One last thing to avoid a pointless and out of topic discussion about what you call "emotional manipulation", when you meet Ryan, he explains to you that you have no free will. He challenges you to be free. I'm sorry, but anyone who still wanted to kill him at that point, is a complete moron.
Muzman on 9/11/2008 at 21:41
If you've played GBM's Thief(?) fan mission 'Benny's Dead' you've got an idea what catbarf means, I think.
SubJeff on 10/11/2008 at 00:05
I liked Benny and I also liked Ryan, and the like of the character is what gave the impact.
I agree with Fafhrd - you should have been given the free will to kill him rather than a cutscene being used. He should have asked you to kindly kill him and then you should have had the reveal, possibly with a log on his body as an adjunct or initiator of an Atlas communication.
I did enjoy the 4th wall breakage at that point though, and quite alot. It wasn't just a nudge and a wink, it was also a giant dig at the objective system in games in general. It all went downhill from there though.
I really enjoyed the final scene in HL2 as well. The "realisation" that I would be saved and Alex would not was great and it was at that point I realised how selfish Freeman is, and how much of a slave - in much the same was as you are in BioShock or any other game for that matter.
Pidesco on 10/11/2008 at 02:03
Counting ammo in SS2. I was actually the Von Braun at times, and there are not a lot of games that have achieved that.
Also, finding Delacroix. I cried with rage.
Every set piece in NOLF 1 and 2. From falling off a plane without a chute to chasing an evil midget in a unicycle.
The conversation with Ravel in Torment. The Sensates' experiences.
Emotionally caring about my decisions in Alpha Centauri.
Regarding Ryan's moment, I have to say that I agree that it is let down by the rest of the game, but I don't think the player should have been given control during scene. It should be infuriating and leave you powerless, and taking away your control is essential to that. Or rather, on the other hand it, in fact, isn't taking away control because you never had it. You just have the illusion of control which is the point Levine was trying to make, and taking away your game input just reinforces that.
Of course, what the game should have done after it, was give you actual freedom and tell you to run with it, instead of forcing you into a corridor shooter again. And that's why, to me, the Andrew Ryan moment is a massive cock up rather than a moment of genius. It's inconsistent with the narrative, insults the player's intelligence, and ends up being an empty moment.
june gloom on 10/11/2008 at 02:43
Climbing the chasm in Thief 2's Precious Cargo. Something cool about that.
Related: The cliffside in HL1. Also, the entirety of HL2's Nova Prospekt.
sh0ck3r on 10/11/2008 at 03:53
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Also, the entirety of HL2's Nova Prospekt.
Yeah, I think the middle portion of Half-Life 2 is wicked, including Nova Prospekt and the part second part of the previous level, where you gain control of those antlions.
I just bought the Orange Box and played thru everything in a flash. Only disappointing part was Episode One. The end of Episode Two was pretty memorable.
june gloom on 10/11/2008 at 04:43
I actually loved Episode 1- there are parts in HL2 that are really quite "meh" (mostly the third act, the street war is just so much huhhhhhhhhh) but E1 was great from start to finish. I played it when it first came out, before they tweaked the zombie rampage by the elevator, and it was insanity- and very difficult. A case can be made for more zombies v.s. less zombies, but either way it was excellent.
sh0ck3r on 10/11/2008 at 05:06
I thought it was weaker than HL2 and ep 2. Squinting in the dark for 10 minutes at the start was irritating. Then "plugging the holes in the dark" with the cars/antlions was annoying. And then escorting squad after squad was just boring. It was like they ran out of ideas for ep 1 and just tried to exploit a few sub-par concepts, in my opinion. Looking forward to ep 3, but am surprised there is not more info out there on the net.
