Zygoptera on 5/11/2008 at 21:18
Quote Posted by dethtoll
That's 'cuz nobody played SS2 besides us.
I'd presume he's talking about the qt3 thread he's linked to previously and if so you can pretty much guarantee most of them had played SS2.
In any case saying Bioshock's twist got a bigger response is a false comparison as many sites (eg qt3) didn't even exist when SS2 came out and the others tended to be a lot smaller, as was the net overall.
Angel Dust on 5/11/2008 at 21:46
Quote Posted by heywood
I'd have to play it that way to be sure, but I don't think that would have worked. You don't want the player to feel complicit in killing Ryan, because then it doesn't feel like you're acting against your will.
But it's not consistent with how the "would you kindly" stuff worked through out the rest of the game. Someone told you what to do and you did it. They used your gaming instincts as part of your characters brainwashing which I really liked. They could have taken that to the breaking point and made it that after he give his speech (still have him move you around via his commands) you had to actively kill him in order to progress. I am quite sure many player's would have run around trying to find another way out of that situation, trying to break the conditioning before realizing that they have absolutely no free will at all and they have to kill this man who will be screaming 'A MAN CHOOSES, A SLAVE OBEYS' as you bludgeon him to death.
Also what the hell was up with those stupid fucking widescreen bars? They didn't help immersing me in the moment.
Papy on 5/11/2008 at 23:06
Most memorable moment was for me when I first tried the demo of Ultima Underworld. For the first time, I thought I was there and not simply playing a video game. Other games like Thief and Dune 2 also had memorable first impression because of their general gameplay, but nothing like Ultima Underworld.
As for small moments, here are some random ones...
Speedball : The only game which made me lose my temper up to now. I unplugged my joystick and threw it to the wall.
Deus Ex : Lots of very good moments, but most memorable one was when I killed Sandra's pimp. It felt really good and I immediately thought : what is wrong with me?!
Thief 3 : The first part of the cradle. Knowing I must go forward, but really don't wanting to.
Gothic 3 : When I met a paladin sitting in the middle of nowhere and talking about his former friend. The setting and the voice acting were perfect and I really felt pity for that character. (There were a few other NPC I found very interesting with that game)
BioShock : Saving the first little sister, Fort Frolic and killing with the waltz of flower (it kind of change my opinion about art and video games), the Ryan scene, Tanenbaum's place and all those little sisters (that last one was the best scene by far).
BTW, Koki, in my opinion, a better way to do the Ryan scene would have been to give the player flashes of control. make it as if the player is fighting for control. For example, change the controlled part in black and white (or blur, or some other feedback), then for a small moment give control back to the player, let him move away, and then retake control from him and continue the cutscene (repeat 2 or 3 times). Of course, I guess this would have been technically very difficult to do.
EvaUnit02 on 5/11/2008 at 23:28
Quote Posted by Angel Dust
They could have taken that to the breaking point and made it that after he give his speech (still have him move you around via his commands) you had to actively kill him in order to progress. I am quite sure many player's would have run around trying to find another way out of that situation, trying to break the conditioning before realizing that they have absolutely no free will at all and they have to kill this man who will be screaming 'A MAN CHOOSES, A SLAVE OBEYS' as you bludgeon him to death
Holy shit, the ending to The Darkness was just like that. If Jackie followed through with his revenge and
killed Uncle Paulie, his soul would belong to The Darkness. The player is given no other option
but to kill Paulie.
Hell, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned The Darkness yet, that game has some unforgettable scenes in it.
Eg When The Darkness constrains Jackie, forcing him to
watch Jenny being executed by Chief Shrote. In the aftermath of that scene, Jackie walks up to a mirror and
blows his own brains out.
It's a real shame that there was never PC port, if you own a 360 or PS3 then you should definitely have a play-through of that game.
catbarf on 5/11/2008 at 23:57
Quote Posted by heywood
I'd have to play it that way to be sure, but I don't think that would have worked. You don't want the player to feel complicit in killing Ryan, because then it doesn't feel like you're acting against your will.
There's a difference between giving the player the illusion of freedom while requiring them to do certain things to progress (as most games do) and putting the player under mind control. If Bioshock revealed "would you kindly" through an audio log, it would have felt like the former, not the latter. Basically, it would have just felt like a convenient excuse for the narrator-based gameplay instead of a major plot twist.
The rest of the entire game works that way- you do what you're told, or you run around aimlessly in Rapture. But you do what you're told because that's how games work, you follow the objectives and kill people. And by the end of the game, chances are you hate Ryan and actually want to kill him. The player himself would be committing the act, and then when the actual reveal comes, it would have been a complete mindfuck, the culmination of the rest of the game.
The thing about your second paragraph is that it shows what we're complaining about. Up until that point, you have the illusion of freedom. When you kill him, it gets the mind control across, but it's not terribly punchy. To psychologically manipulate the player into performing the act with just as little free will as his character would have far more of an emotional impact.
Aja on 6/11/2008 at 00:03
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
In any case saying Bioshock's twist got a bigger response is a false comparison as many sites (eg qt3) didn't even exist when SS2 came out and the others tended to be a lot smaller, as was the net overall.
Yeah, but even if it wasn't, what are you gonna do, analyze her motivations? She's evil.
Quote Posted by Fafhrd
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the thing that completely breaks that moment, and makes its pretensions of meta-commentary fail, is that the whole event is a non-interactive cutscene. The player is not complicit in any way with what happens when Ryan comes out of his office, and it completely defuses the impact of the moment, and wastes a lot of well done emotionally charged earlier scenes where the player character is given more than enough reasons to believe that Ryan is a heartless evil bastard, and that
killing him is a good idea. The twist would have worked better if the whole 'A Man chooses, a Slave obeys.
Would You Kindly' reveal had been done with an audio log that you see Ryan finish recording just as you arrive, and listen to AFTER the deed is done. Of course, the game would still fly wildly off the rails after the
Atlas reveal.
That would probably work, but I'm not sure giving the player control over the cutscene would be a good idea. For one, they probably wouldn't know what to do, so they'd end up either
killing him (in which case it would be fine), or else just stand around waiting for something to happen (which would completely diffuse any tension). The non-interactive cutscene ensures maximum drama. Unless you meant the cutscene would still be non-interactive, and afterwards you'd find a log. That could be effective.
And catbarf, I didn't hate Ryan at all. I really liked him, and so
killing him was a traumatic experience. Maybe that's why I was so affected.
Papy on 6/11/2008 at 01:45
I didn't like Ryan at all, but when I met him he earned my respect. I certainly didn't want to kill him. At least, not that way.
Quote Posted by catbarf
To psychologically manipulate the player into performing the act with just as little free will as his character would have far more of an emotional impact.
Either I don't understand what you mean, or this is the most ridiculous idea I have ever read. To manipulate someone is very difficult. Putting a person in a situation of psychological distress in order to make him or her completely receptive to command requires to be very perceptive and to have a lot of knowledge about that person. It also requires physical control over what that person can do (no sleep and no contact with other persons who are not part of a manipulated group are a minimum). Seriously, how can a game I control manipulate me?
Fringe on 6/11/2008 at 01:54
The Fortress of Regrets.
redrain85 on 6/11/2008 at 03:48
Quote Posted by Papy
Fort Frolic and killing with the waltz of flower (it kind of change my opinion about art and video games)
Oh yeah, shit. I forgot about that. All of Fort Frolic, Sander Cohen, and the waltz were delightfully twisted. Probably the best level in the game. It pretty much consistently went downhill after that, save for the aforementioned moments with Ryan.
Brad Schoonmaker on 6/11/2008 at 04:03
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
References to "mother" are not indicative though as, per KL, Polito created the Xerxes AI. Those references, especially with the Many's group consciousness, could have been literally referring to her.
This I didn't realize. I just assumed metal mother referred to SHODAN.
Quote Posted by Papy
Most memorable moment was for me when I first tried the demo of Ultima Underworld. For the first time, I thought I was there and not simply playing a video game.
Oh yes, UW. I remember seeing the playable demo and being totally amazed. As close to virtual reality (1992 remember) as I'd seen. Very impressive game on top of the coolness perk.
Quote:
Thief 3 : The first part of the cradle. Knowing I must go forward, but really don't wanting to.
If anything could redeem T3 in the hearts of hardcore Thief fans, it's this level. From the very start to the very end of the first area, I literally crawled everywhere and looked in all directions at intersections. Soo quiet. Damn well done. So well I stopped there. I looked at the next area and just couldn't do it after seeing the mummy thing. CRAP I'm done. Too freaky for me.
And the Constantine cut scene has to be the best I've ever seen. I miss LGS.
