Moments and scenes that stuck with you

Fafhrd on 6/11/2008 at 05:16

Quote Posted by Papy

Either I don't understand what you mean, or this is the most ridiculous idea I have ever read. To manipulate someone is very difficult. Putting a person in a situation of psychological distress in order to make him or her completely receptive to command requires to be very perceptive and to have a lot of knowledge about that person. It also requires physical control over what that person can do (no sleep and no contact with other persons who are not part of a manipulated group are a minimum). Seriously, how can a game I control manipulate me?

WTF are you smoking? We're not suggesting the game ACTIVELY BRAINWASH the player. Emotional manipulation is well within the ability of games, films, music, or any other form of art. And BioShock is actually kind of effective at it in the first third of the game. It's just that all the moments designed to create a specific attitude toward Ryan in the player are ultimately wasted by how the final confrontation plays out.

Quote:

That would probably work, but I'm not sure giving the player control over the cutscene would be a good idea. For one, they probably wouldn't know what to do, so they'd end up either killing him (in which case it would be fine), or else just stand around waiting for something to happen (which would completely diffuse any tension)

You've been told over and over again to kill Ryan, and that killing Ryan is the only way out of Rapture. A group of splicers, under Ryan's command, murdered Atlas's wife and child right in front of you, and you saw a ghost flashback that strongly implied that Ryan murdered his mistress. You actually witness him murder the botanist (probably the only sane and normal person in the game) and try to destroy the oxygen grove, which would have killed EVERYONE IN RAPTURE. Throughout the entire game he's painted as a dictatorial lunatic. Any player that gets to Ryan and DOESN'T think they're supposed to kill him is an idiot. And those few that stand around for ten minutes trying to find another way out before finally killing him will hopefully be able to get what just happened when they listen to his log. I'm sure a lot of people still wouldn't, but sometimes artists have to have a little faith in their audience.

BlackCapedManX on 6/11/2008 at 06:25

I think, oddly because of how poorly the story is usually articulated, but the final scene in Armored Core: Nexus is one of the most epic moments in the game and probably the best "warrior death" ending I've ever seen. Even though there's a bit of tragedy that you die, it's so fitting and suiting, and you're litterally trying to shoot down and endless barrage of death, which, outside of context was still very viscerally acute.

Much of what's been said about DX.

I played both FFVII and MGS without any fore knowledge of what either game was about, so many of the scenes in both games were astounding. MGS especially having a number of outstanding cutscenes, and the rise out of the launching chamber with Metal Gear Rex (knowing that you were about to fight it, but having no idea how that was supposed to happen) was awe-inspired.

The "A man chooses!" scene in Bioshock was kinda old hat for me. Mostly because I've read Rand, and am familiar with scenes like (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq9udFmsNO0) this. By comparison Ryan's speech felt overdone and kind of campy. It's almost like super-drama-action-movie Ayn Rand, which just didn't really stick in my head.

Aja on 6/11/2008 at 06:35

Quote Posted by Fafhrd

Any player that gets to Ryan and DOESN'T think they're supposed to kill him is an idiot. And those few that stand around for ten minutes trying to find another way out before finally killing him will hopefully be able to get what just happened when they listen to his log. I'm sure a lot of people still wouldn't, but sometimes artists have to have a little faith in their audience.

Ryan was heartless, sure. But I still understood his motivations and what drove him to that point. He was the best character in Rapture, I didn't want to see him go. Your point is valid, but there are some of us who genuinely liked him. I would've been one of the guys standing around hoping for another solution, and the scene would've lost all meaning.

Scots Taffer on 6/11/2008 at 09:30

Quote Posted by Aja

I don't understand how can call it "splendid" but then claim it's devoid of emotional impact.

Because it's the same way I can say that a movie is superficially very entertaining but a hollow experience when it comes to thematic depth, drama and characterisation. It's not difficult. I got a bit of a giddy Fight Club kick from the twist but ultimately felt it was a very rude thing for Levine to write in as an excuse for the most of the game (the other explanation being the inevitable LUKE I AM YOUR FATHER subplot) - it wasn't the same kind of fuck you that the Coens achieved with No Country For Old Men but that's definitely an apt comparison of how it can work.

Quote Posted by Aja

I see no forums with forty-page literary analyses on Shodan's surprise.

lol

Malf on 6/11/2008 at 09:55

Oh yeah, that fiend moment in original Quake :D

Thirith on 6/11/2008 at 10:06

Scots: could you elaborate a bit on your comparison of the NCfOM ending and the "A man chooses" moment in Bioshock? I get the impression you've got some interesting opinions, but right now I'm a bit vague on what you mean. (Might be lack of caffeine, mind you...)

june gloom on 6/11/2008 at 10:13

Stick it behind spoilers 'cuz I haven't seen it yet.

Papy on 6/11/2008 at 10:37

Quote Posted by Fafhrd

Emotional manipulation is well within the ability of games, films, music, or any other form of art.

Ok, you'll then have to explain to me how games, music or any form of art can remove my "free will"...

june gloom on 6/11/2008 at 10:40

God you people. It's just a fucking cutscene in the first person. It's not the only game to do that. Why don't you argue about the execution of the president of that little Mid-East country in Call of Duty 4?

Thirith on 6/11/2008 at 10:47

Quote Posted by dethtoll

Probably because there's a difference between a game designed to be 'artistic' where form and content should fit one another in ways that go beyond "It's just a cutscene, innit?" Especially if the whole issue of free will vs. determinism is a big theme in the game.

If it is "just a fucking cutscene in the first person", then the game's artistic pretentions are pretty much invalidated.

That's why they're not arguing about the CoD4 scene (although I would argue that game also undermines the whole "the player is in control" idea in interesting ways).