Zygoptera on 6/11/2008 at 10:56
Quote Posted by Brad Schoonmaker
This I didn't realize. I just assumed metal mother referred to SHODAN.
It does, I don't think there's any real argument about it as some of the other quotes make it obvious The Many has known who Polito really is from the beginning, but without that wider context it's not necessarily so.
(
http://www.strangebedfellows.de/index.php?topic=283.0) The actual quote for Polito making Xerxes is:
..Cal McGill, the chairman of the sub-committee, and the most expensive line item on Anatoly's payroll at the entire hearing, leaned forward in her chair.
"Uh, Dr. Polito, isn't this exactly the kind of challenge that you created the Xerxes prototype to face?"Thirith on 6/11/2008 at 11:28
catbarf: The irony there is, though, that the people who just do exactly what they're told in game are also the people who are unlikely to appreciate or even recognise the irony of the moment. Those who try to go for alternative approaches are the ones who might appreciate what Bioshock does, or tries to do, in the scene. It may still not work for a number of reasons, mind you.
Edit: Wasn't there a catbarf post that I replied to? *blink*
Aja on 6/11/2008 at 18:40
Quote Posted by Thirith
Scots: could you elaborate a bit on your comparison of the
NCfOM ending and the "A man chooses" moment in
Bioshock? I get the impression you've got some interesting opinions, but right now I'm a bit vague on what you mean. (Might be lack of caffeine, mind you...)
I think he's talking about the whole "Levine says 'fuck you' to players" thing. The Coens do something similar in that
they kill off the main character abruptly and without warning, and seemingly without any real purpose. But then the Sheriff's speech at the end gives it a bit of reason (but still leaves the viewer somewhat deliberately unsatisfied).
Of course Bioshock doesn't do this; Bioshock is not literature, but did anyone ever say it was? I claimed it was closer than most games, but it's still a long way off, which makes such comparisons a little inappropriate. For what it's worth, the giddy thrill of Fight Club is actually a more apt comparison: both are emotionally impactful but ultimately immature. Which still puts Bioshock in a video-game class pretty much all of its own.
gunsmoke on 6/11/2008 at 21:15
Quote Posted by Aja
For what it's worth, the giddy thrill of Fight Club is actually a more apt comparison:
both are emotionally impactful but ultimately immature. Which still puts Bioshock in a video-game class pretty much all of its own.
Well put.
Muzman on 6/11/2008 at 21:21
Quote Posted by Angel Dust
Also what the hell was up with those stupid fucking widescreen bars? They didn't help immersing me in the moment.
Amusing to think that they do that do be cinematic while also throwing on a lot of retro touches into the game itself to establish period. But given the time of Rapture's heyday they should have been using Academy ratio instead of letterboxing. /nerd
Anyway, general comment. I'm always fascinated to hear about people being astounded by reveal scenes like that bit in Bioshock, or System Shock 2 or Thief for that matter (I'm sure there's others that don't feature Ken, but these are the topic du jour). I always see these things so far in advance. I can't be the only one that finds these twists dead obvious from all the foreshadowing going on before hand. I hear of people being "blown away" by Bioshock's bit and I just think "Have you seen books, movies, television, even comics? They're great. Try them some time".
It's true I don't know if people are reacting to the reveal itself or how it's handled and the latter is a large factor. But I, for one, was in no way surprised by any of them (incidentally, not to fuel any fires, but I found Bioshock's the weakest of the three. The others left a feeling of being powerless and alone. Bioshock's clearly trying to do the same sort of thing, but for some reason it doesn't stick and is merely 'cute'. I think if they'd tried a bit more to make you do more plainly loathsome things up to that point so that after you're in a place of complete moral disgust with yourself they might have got over the hump there.)
demagogue on 6/11/2008 at 21:50
Putting aside moments already mentioned here (Polito, etc...)
There was a moment in the interactive fiction Anchorhead that I thought was really well constructed ... in the town's records office, you are looking at the birth and death records of every person in the bad guys' family going back 300 years and you notice, if you're paying attention, that every father died exactly 9 months before their daughters gave birth to a son, 7 generations in a row, and there's an "oh shi..." moment as the awful truth emerges, not in the game, it doesn't even notice.* But you do.
*(at least not at that point; it notices later).
I like it because of how natural and free it is. The game doesn't tell you anything directly, the info is out in the open all along, but not until you figure out how to look for it can you see it. It's something the player does entirely on his own. But it's constructed well enough that when the player does do it, it has a big impact and brings all the events around the player together. I think the freedom of it is what makes it stand out in my memory over other game moments, since it's something that happens to you and not in the game itself.
It's almost a paradigm of interactive storytelling, where the player himself is freely participating in the story, rather than just along for the rail-ride.
Another "moment" in that game is when the destroyer-of-worlds sees you watching it through the telescope.
Well, the game has a number of chilling moments. The whole game was pretty unsettling.
Scots Taffer on 7/11/2008 at 00:00
Quote Posted by Thirith
Scots: could you elaborate a bit on your comparison of the
NCfOM ending and the "A man chooses" moment in
Bioshock? I get the impression you've got some interesting opinions, but right now I'm a bit vague on what you mean. (Might be lack of caffeine, mind you...)
Well...
Quote Posted by Scots speaking through Aja
I think he's talking about the whole "Levine says 'fuck you' to players" thing. The Coens do something similar in that
they kill off the main character abruptly and without warning, and seemingly without any real purpose. But then the Sheriff's speech at the end gives it a bit of reason (but still leaves the viewer somewhat deliberately unsatisfied).
Quite, except that "bit of reason" is a huge fucking reason and is underpinned by, y'know, everything in the movie from the title down to the futility of the final scenes.
Quote Posted by Aja
Of course Bioshock doesn't do this; Bioshock is not literature, but did anyone ever say it was?
Hrm, your comment (implied) on the last page about a 40 page thesis on Ryan's twist makes me think that some people DO treat it as profoundly as literature however -
Quote Posted by Aja
For what it's worth, the giddy thrill of Fight Club is actually a more apt comparison: both are emotionally impactful but ultimately immature. Which still puts Bioshock in a video-game class pretty much all of its own.
Right on. I can't agree with the emotionally impactful except to say that I was pissed off that Levine could be so cheap as to think a meta-joke cop-out allows for a complete lack of coherent narrative for the player-character.
sh0ck3r on 7/11/2008 at 00:30
Diablo - getting autokilled for 5 minutes straight
Final Fantasy 7 - part at end of disc 1
Unreal Tournament - running a clan
System Shock 2 - in ops when you descend the latter to a sim unit and get ambushed by spiders while that incredible track comes on... sort of a bipolar moment
Fallout - exploring different possibilites; screwing people over
DaBeast on 7/11/2008 at 00:47
When whats her face died in Colony Wars:Red Sun I was kind of touched, especially since I thought I'd saved her by retrieving her pod :(
The Colossus construction cinematic in freespace 2 still raises the hair on the back of my neck, and the importance of encountering multiple Sathanas'.
Being too afraid to play Shock 2 and in AvP 2 going into the alien nest at the start with you're buddys basically saying "fuck that shit!", finally summoning up the balls to continue, every moment inside that nest I was brickin it.
Pretty much every cinematic moment in all of the Homeworld games.
Aja on 7/11/2008 at 01:37
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Quite, except that "bit of reason" is a huge fucking reason and is underpinned by, y'know, everything in the movie from the title down to the futility of the final scenes.
Yeah, that was a poor choice of words and I knew it as soon as I posted it. But I think that a lot of viewers (myself not included) felt cheated by the ending.
