The Shroud on 11/12/2008 at 00:37
There's even a scene in the cathedral where Garrett shoots an oil drum with a broadhead arrow to spill oil over the floor, and then shoots the drum with a fire arrow to ignite the entire area (along with a slew of undead).
jtr7 on 11/12/2008 at 00:51
Hmmm. Should it be a drum, a cask, or an earthen vessel? And is this TDS oil in bulk, yet to be poured in flasks?
The Shroud on 11/12/2008 at 00:56
It would be kerosene oil, most likely. Stored for the cathedral's lamps and heating.
The Shroud on 11/12/2008 at 01:16
Yep.
jtr7 on 11/12/2008 at 01:31
One last bit about Con's Sword, while I'm thinking of it:
The Sword does not have to function for Garrett as a blade, but as another kind of talisman. It's a portable thing to benefit the carrier needing to remain unseen. For Garrett's story, it doesn't have to be a blade at all to provide him an increase in stealth, it could've been an amulet; however, since it is a blade, Garrett could use it, as well as use a rock, a hammer, a stick, a halberd, whatever is at hand, to defend himself in a tight spot. Not proficiently, but better than fists for getting some jobs done.
One element of Con's Ritual is the element of darkness. The sword could embody that element the same way four bricks embody air, earth, fire, and water. All are a kind of artifact, and Thief is big on artifacts.
xxcoy on 11/12/2008 at 10:50
I wouldn't go too much "fantasy" on that issue. ;)
jtr7 on 11/12/2008 at 18:27
I find it fascinating that no one wants much fantasy in their fantasy, yet that's precisely what Thief is, and again, I dare you to take any mission and remove the fantasy and have a mission left. I'm not ashamed of Thief.
Them point being, as far as the story is concerned, it doesn't matter how big the blade is, or who, or what it was originally forged for. It would only matter very much if this was a commercial screenplay. Just because he's carrying a magic blade, doesn't mean he has to be a fighter, or become a fighter, or engage in battle. The fact that it's a blade is separate from it's purpose for Garrett, yet since it's available, it becomes an option.
It's the Trickster we're talking about here.
The Shroud on 11/12/2008 at 19:09
On the issue of explosives - I had originally written explosive mines and the sunburst device into the script, then I removed them. The reason being that I can't rationalize a setting like Thief's having knowledge of explosives (i.e. gun powder) and yet, not having the brains to invent any firearms. TMA had the iron beasts, which had canons and I can potentially see Karrass making all these breakthroughs at the dawn of the Metal Age, but for TDP it's just not reasonable for them to have discovered gun powder and still be using bows and arrows.
This is not to say that all of the Thief setting's technology necessarily has to conform to our historical eras. For instance, there's no reason why they couldn't have discovered electricity earlier than we did. So it's fine to mix in early Victorian aspects with medieval ones as long as it's plausible. The same reason it's fine to have burricks and giant spiders, even though we never did. Things just happened differently in Thief's setting than they did in our history.
However, some things cannot be reconciled even in a fantasy setting - and this includes gun powder without guns. Maybe if gun powder had only just recently been discovered and no one had had the time or innovation to dream up a firearm yet, it could fly. But it's clear in the game that these people have known about gun powder for quite a while since they've already invented proximity mines and "sunburst" devices. Yet, there are no firearms anywhere. No muskets, no rifles, nothing. And these people aren't stupid either - it took some brilliant minds to invent things like Tesla coils, collector towers, and such. So this makes the presence of gun powder combined with the absence of guns implausible.
Please no appeals to the boundless freedoms of fantasy on this one. This is simply about logic. I don't have a problem with the existence of magic (magic is just misunderstood science anyway), monsters, fantastical realms and powerful gods. But they should make sense within their own surroundings. Explosive mines and sunburst devices don't make sense with everything else we know about Thief's setting.
This may cause you to wonder how Garrett escapes from the cathedral if there's no sunburst device for him to use to blow through the cloister gate. Don't worry - Garrett causes an explosion via other means.
jtr7 on 11/12/2008 at 19:32
The black powder works fine if you approach it as something new, related to the war with Blackbrook, that has yet to spread, or find acceptance. Keep in mind that all three stories are about the coming of a new age. TDP starts at the cusp of one, and ends at the cusp of another. People would be slow to change as expense, availability, ease of use, and perfection of craft were issues, as well as ideas regarding proficiency with a bow vs. learning the new weapon, silent vs. obnoxious, etc.
The TMA cannonballs were black powder, but they were launched with steam pressure. The explosive device, predating TDP by 50 years, was made by an alchemist. It was a new invention, the recipe and craft of which were lost. Obviously, if it wasn't for the Cataclysm, TDP would likely have flint-locks. For potions and other materials impossibly-made by man you gotta have alchemy. And the mines can be more guerrilla like, with the war, and all, without proximity triggers. Brother Karras was already making stuff, certainly. Don't forget the Underguilds.
The canon provides the basis to apply logic, the Thief universe has it's own logic, any appeal comes from that starting point. I believe I am being logical with what material we've been given. If someone were to see the movie first, then discover the games, their reaction could be very interesting.
