The Shroud on 11/12/2008 at 20:45
I think the safest bet is if the movie simply doesn't address the presence or absence of black powder one way or the other. It can be left ambiguous like much else of Thief's setting. That way diehard Thief purists can still imagine that explosive devices exist (just that they're being used in the war rather than lying around in abandoned cathedrals), and people ignorant of the Thief games won't scoff at the absurdity of explosive mines in a medieval setting. The same goes for potions and holy water. The movie doesn't have to show that they exist, nor does it have to show that they don't exist. People can believe what they want. Purists and realists can both be satisfied.
jtr7 on 11/12/2008 at 20:51
Actually, if there's no clue that it exists, it does not exist, and you know it doesn't need exposition.
The Shroud on 11/12/2008 at 20:59
Well that's not really true. After all, we didn't know cats existed in Thief before TDS but I'm sure we all unconsciously believed they existed anyway. There was no clue in TDP that artificial intelligence was a feasible technology but when TMA came along we all accepted the iron beasts. There's no clue that a god exists in our world, but that certainly doesn't stop any believer from believing in one, since no one can really prove a god doesn't exist either.
jtr7 on 11/12/2008 at 21:28
I didn't assume cats existed, I merely wondered. The place has rats and lots of talk about them! But when I saw that there were mentions of birds (many kinds, never seen), deer legs from deer, bears in bear pits, and fish, as implied by a fish market sign, and a picture of pork, I knew those existed. TDP tells us there are lions, so that allows for other cats, but until we saw one, we couldn't say what kind. In TDP, we can only presume sheep exist (parchment) but later we know they do. It is still a common misconception that no one rides horse-drawn carriages and has to walk everywhere, and if one does get a ride, it's a taxi, not their own dang carriage.:laff:
If it's never shown or mentioned at all, it does not exist. I can pretend it does, but I am incorrect to state that as fact. Even non-purists pounce on someone when they bring up something not known to be found in-game, even if it's in the game files.
It should be quite clear that I'm not afraid of imagining all kinds of wild speculations, but why is one kind preferred over another, when there is so much craziness present in the source material? Why invent completely new material rather than work with the vast material present? And you know you can utterly reject anything I say, and you don't have to share your work at all. Pick and choose, reject or use. How are you determining when to drag real life into fantasy, and fantasy into real life? Are you going by gut-instinct? Seems like it should be a chocolate and peanut butter thing. ;)
Beleg Cúthalion on 11/12/2008 at 21:43
There is a way of hinting fantasy and of throwing it in front of the audience. I guess Coy rather referred to the second. As I said before, mixing middle ages and steampunk (which in itself is anachronistic) will result in illogicalness one way or the other. The questions are...
1.) Will you try to composite it of fantasy elements since Thief is fantasy somehow and it saves you a lot of researches or will you try to combine several elements somehow historical on their own? Like late-medieval guards and spacy Victorian street lights?
2.) Will you make each element obvious in its historical whereabouts or just smuggle the images in in a way that they could barely exist at the same time even in reality?
What are the medieval elements of Thief? Weapons, armour and some bulky foundations, walls, castles in the City? Not much if you ask me. Medieval architecture is nothing anachronistic for later periods; weapons and armour could be transferred or even kept as an oddity of the setting, as it were. The TDS artworks show helmets and swords adapted to something I like to call Art Nouveau because I can't find a better term. It's a stretch between two things but it works somehow. That's why I said mines with gun powder could work as well (in the 15th ct. they had guns and cannons already, if not earlier). Just because you don't see guns in the movie doesn't mean there are none. The crossbow was used still for a long time, as were halberds and all that.
I would worry about the more essential but even freakier flash bombs. They'd had to be some gun powder/magnesium mixture of some sorts.
The Shroud on 11/12/2008 at 22:17
My basic methodology in writing the screenplay is this:
- start with the canon in its original, unaltered form
- make necessary technical revisions (i.e. cut it down to 120 pages/other format issues)
- make necessary plot adjustments for the 2 hr length (i.e. removing missions 2-4)
- rewrite/replace/cut out gameplay-specific aspects (i.e. looting, bonus objectives, etc.)
- spice up repetitive gameplay scenes with new ideas (i.e. more puzzles/problem-solving)
- add action, suspense, humor, etc. where it's lacking
- strive for seriousness over silliness (i.e. "Batman" '89 compared to the old tv series)
- find realistic ways for fantasy elements to work (i.e. plausible water/fire/rope arrows, etc.)
- separate what is and isn't crucial to the story (what I'm doing now)
- edit the whole thing with the big screen in mind, proof it, get feedback, and submit it
jtr7, do you think you'd be content if explosives didn't appear in the TDP movie, but appeared in the sequel along with all the other advancements in war-tech?
Beleg, you make several good points. We tend to unconsciously associate Thief mostly with medieval times, but perhaps we shouldn't. Maybe the medieval elements are more the exception than the rule, or perhaps we are using the wrong criteria to label the approximate time placement of the setting. There's a lot we really don't know about Thief and generally assume.
As for the flashbombs, fortunately there are ways those could work without gun powder.
ShadowSneaker, I agree with everything you said.
jtr7 on 11/12/2008 at 22:31
If you were to mention the war--preferably, the Baron at war--that would relax me on the issue of black powder, and is consistent with what I'd said earlier.:) I take it you are not showing any of the armories?
Thief is derivative of many times, cultures, movies, books (including comics), and plays, where they all create new rules about what is normal, or what falls within what's possible, impossible, improbable, and even laughably implausible in real life. Engine bugs and exploits should not be used, or it should be very very clever fan-service.
The mechanical eye, the missing Precursor technology and artifacts, the dangerous heights of that civilization, the Precursor masks, the nagging Keeper prophecies Garrett will not listen to, the welder with the modern gas canisters, all hint in TDP at what's coming, but of course, the horrific extremes are meant to be a surprise.
Oddly, in TMA, I have more trouble accepting T.M. Blackheart's mixing board, than anything else.:laff: :tsktsk:
The Maw of Chaos is meant to defy your logic, defy physics, yet common sense allows one to pass through and solve the puzzle. Potions and crystals do not have to be the power-ups they are in the game--an idea I have enforced. They are there, in that world, and are tools ("Tulz," heh heh) and used the way any skilled person would use any everyday common thing in their line of work. In THAT world, these things are not fantastic. In THIS world, they certainly are. The people of THAT world doubt the legends are true, but are not flabbergasted to find out they are--shocked, yes, but their brains don't short-out, they don't panic, they adapt and seek resolution fairly quickly.
For the movie, you have to stop treating these things as a game.
ShadowSneaker, I agree with everything you said that isn't directed at me. I haven't said what you've implied, nor pushed that notion. I keep telling you guys what I am saying when I argue for something, but I realize I'm on the inside looking out, and that that is a fanaticism that is shared by few. Think of it as a novel that was never a game, and you'll begin to see where I'm coming from. Have a sense of humor and play it straight. I want to have the story of the game told, not watch the game acted out. I haven't read Terry Pratchett, but from what I've heard, his books with intentional Thiefy nods may be a better gauge to measure with, as well as Jack Vance's
Cugel's Saga, where the seed for the Trickster's demise came from. The mere appearance of a frogbeast, like a baby burrick on it's hind legs, would be enough.
I love the sound of this:
Quote Posted by The Shroud
Beleg, you make several good points. We tend to unconsciously associate Thief mostly with medieval times, but perhaps we shouldn't. Maybe the medieval elements are more the exception than the rule, or perhaps we are using the wrong criteria to label the approximate time placement of the setting. There's a lot we really don't know about Thief and generally assume.
YES! And even the devs debated a little here over which real historical era
Thief most resembled to them, in general, after the game was made, and you just know
that influenced mission design, and player perception of The City overall.
The Shroud on 11/12/2008 at 23:25
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
The questions are...
1.) Will you try to composite it of fantasy elements since Thief is fantasy
somehow and it saves you a lot of researches or will you try to combine several elements somehow historical on their own? Like late-medieval guards and spacy Victorian street lights?
The guards and street lights have been left the same as they appeared in TDP. As for broader aspects, I'd say it's a mixture of both - some are constructed from real historical elements (architecture, resources, materials, etc.), some are just plain made up. But I've insured that even the made up aspects (Garrett's items for example)
could have been constructed with the resources available even though they weren't in any era of our own history.
Quote:
2.) Will you make each element obvious in its historical whereabouts or just smuggle the images in in a way that they
could barely exist at the same time even in reality?
I will attempt not to push Thief's setting toward any particular era of our own history and instead maintain the odd mixture of elements from different historical periods - provided they
can coexist without utterly contradicting one another. So it would seem closer to your second statement in that respect.
Quote:
What are the medieval elements of Thief? Weapons, armour and some bulky foundations, walls, castles in the City? Not much if you ask me. Medieval architecture is nothing anachronistic for later periods; weapons and armour could be transferred or even kept as an oddity of the setting, as it were. The TDS artworks show helmets and swords adapted to something I like to call Art Nouveau because I can't find a better term. It's a stretch between two things but it works somehow. That's why I said mines with gun powder could work as well (in the 15th ct. they had guns and cannons already, if not earlier). Just because you don't see guns in the movie doesn't mean there are none. The crossbow was used still for a long time, as were halberds and all that.
Agreed.
jtr7, concerning the war with Blackbrook, the screenplay currently doesn't mention it. I might write it in at some point but right now there aren't too many guard conversations or unnecessary scrolls/parchments that Garrett finds (although there are still some
important scrolls/parchments/journals/books that he comes across during his adventures in places like the Olde Quarter Keeper compound, the Lost City, the Hammerite temple, the cathedral, and the treehouse beneath Constantine's mansion). As for him breaking into armories, currently no. He does however break into the factory in the cathedral when engineering his escape.
jtr7 on 11/12/2008 at 23:52
Okay.
Unlike in the game, Garrett can overhear snatches of talk in passing, but only listen intently when someone says something of interest. The movie could easily play into the concept of how violating his casual intrusions into people's homes can be, very creepy if it wasn't for a good cause ( :p ), and conversations can include a host entertaining several guests in the living room, as Garrett slips through an adjacent corridor.
Something Bafford's touched on, that I wish could've been tapped into more in the games, are the voices coming from within buildings he cannot enter, nor needs to. There is the building with the lights on inside, and the hubbub of a bar is heard. People in normal conversation, as he passes; except, in the movie, one voice is clear enough to provide a little flavor as he is slinking around, waiting in shadows. The voices are heard, and understood by the viewer, but ignored by a focused Garrett avoiding those passing him on the street.
Not all conversations should have people shown acting it, and they don't have to be visible at all, nor do they have to walk away when they are done. Annoying as it is, the conversation between Karras and Truart is nothing but sound played in an empty room. The illusion is powerful enough that people want to get in there and see what their imaginations tell them physically exists. Not a single bit of it exists, but the walls. Tap into that.
A common movie technique is to have the motionless camera focus on a medium shot of the main character's actions, pressed against a building, while the viewer hears a muffled argument in the background. We may see one of the arguing persons as a silhouette on frosted glass. The camera holds still, but the focus shifts to the background as the main character walks off-screen. As the camera focus shifts, so does the clarity of the sound in the background. In three or four seconds we have action, story, suspense, atmosphere, and a little flavor about why The City has so much corruption. Corruption being another MAJOR plot point, addressed as something so wrong it needs to be erased.
The Shroud on 12/12/2008 at 00:07
jtr7, I have a feeling you'd be very happy with a few scenes in particular:
- the Throne Room guard's all-too-familiar mumblings in Lord Bafford's Manor
- a brief bit of overheard nightlife when Garrett delivers the scepter to Cutty at his home
- plenty of background bustle in the Crippled Burrick Inn, where Garrett meets Viktoria
- a brief chat between two guards in Constantine's mansion
- lots of background sermons and short snippets of conversations in the Hammerite temple
I'm most proud of the Hammerite temple sequence, since it shows off a great deal of the Hammerites' verses and tenets (except in overheard sermon, rather than in written form) while Garrett is snooping around as a plain-robed novice.
