jtr7 on 12/12/2008 at 00:20

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Sure! Keep it natural and it'll sell itself. I think seeing (and hearing!) the Hammerites acting as devout monks, reciting their tenets to build themselves up spiritually, when they aren't building anything physically is perfect. :thumb:

So Garrett's Bafford job got him noticed by Con/Vikt, right? Okay.:)


Are you touching on any of the Wardens or competing thieves at all?

jtr7 on 12/12/2008 at 00:50

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Oh goody! And by including Ramirez and Downwinders, you've also touched on Wardens and competing thieves, there, even if Ramirez is not called a Warden. It is there, it exists in your script.:thumb:

I like it fine. :)

jtr7 on 12/12/2008 at 01:02

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Right on!

Thoughts:

Like Captain America's shield in view in the background in Iron Man, things can exist without anyone needing to notice, but are there for the observant, the fans, and those looking for it, AND are there to tie this story to the ones to come. These aren't just Easter Eggs or strictly fan-service. Excellent!

Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere novel demonstrates dark, magical, absurd, and dangerous well, in my opinion. Humor amidst deadly seriousness.

As has been mentioned before, and as many know, but not all, here are the shared influences:
For TDP, the cover image of Caleb Carr's The Alienist--leading to the juxtaposition of a Dickensian poverty and Baroque ostentatiousness--Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, as well as Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser adventures, and the movie Blade Runner were heavy influences.
Thief Gold derived much from The Phantom of the Opera, and slips in a variation of the name The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover.

For TMA, Fritz Lang's M and Metropolis, Charles Dickens' Oliver Twist and A Tale of Two Cities, the works of Lewis Carroll, The Third Man, the works of Jules Verne, level design in the original Rainbow Six, the original black & white Beauty and the Beast, The City of Lost Children, and Time Bandits is an unofficial influence, or just Terry Gilliam's work in general (Monty Python, too). --[The fans have noted a lot of similarity between Karras and Hitler and the Mechanists and Nazis, and there's a Viktrola in Wieldstrom that sounds very much like Karras and throng of shouting followers.]

TDS was influenced by The City of Lost Children. The Cradle influences include Randy Smith's horror Thief levels, Eric Brosius's soundwork, the Silent Hill series, the System Shock series, the movie Jacob's Ladder and also Ringu, The Changeling, and other influences pending.

The Trickster is a nature god, Viktoria his fellow nature guardian. They represent Flora and Fauna. They attempt to use natural forces against those who are have destroyed nature and caused humanity to become apathetic to nature, preferring technology (peaking with rampant consumerism in TMA, heh heh), and Garrett uses natural forces in opposition to the Pagans' schemes. Fighting fire with fire. Letting the Woodsie Lord kill himself with his own final plan. (Karras also kills himself with his own weapons. Both unwittingly, of course.) So I believe the four elements are crucial. The ritual has seven elements, and Con and Viki show command over space, but separate from time, with all the portals (pre-TDS) and the one dramatic slash-tear of the fabric of space, which they step through to leave the mansion proper.

jtr7 on 12/12/2008 at 02:45

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That taking some fantasy elements out will reduce it to nothingness?

I can see how you may have meant something else, but it seemed like a dig with eye-rolling. Sorry if I misunderstood, but I don't want people to keep seeking ways to remove this and that, because everybody's got several somethings they don't want to see, and if everyone who did had their way, it would not be Thief. They don't have to be seen in action at all, and could even be reduced to a literal whisper or set-dressing, but they are what makes up the Thief world, and they are woven into the story, some critical, some as flavor.

jtr7 on 12/12/2008 at 05:05

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Okay, thanks. Apologies.:angel:

Agreed, SS. As I've been stating, ineffectively (OY!), make the movie universe allow for the existence of everything in the games, but they don't have to be utilized by any character, or used as they were as game-play tools.

Have you guys seen the Watchmen featurettes about set-design and such? As an avid fan of how movies are made, and the stories behind the stories, it's extremely common for the sets to pack in more detail than anybody could ever take in. The advantage of placing it there is to make it feel like a real lived-in world, with a history, with all the layers of humanity and diversity filling in the gaps and cracks. This movie requires world-building, so fill it in. I do realize, also, that the movie-sets can add what the script leaves out, but by making a quick mention of things in the scene descriptions, it's not neglected by the fans.

The Thief universe is very layered above and below the main plot. It's rich and a movie that creates a sense of something bigger than the sets, older, and broader, deeper, it will become more "real".:thumb:

Don't lock anything out, but allow it to exist. The cutscenes show more of the developer's intent than what they could accomplish in DromEd. I do trust you are making good decisions, I just need assurance for myself about how the decision was made. If the attitude behind the choice is respect for everything Thief is, good and bad, I'll be okay with it. I'd rather things were pushed to the background than cut completely. Also, cutting too much out will make TMA seem even more outrageous, eh? Removing things because someone doesn't like it opens a can of worms, as everyone has a list. I have a list, but...the games are what they are, the story is what it is, the world is what the world is, and there are things on our lists that are beloved by others. To cut is to personalize for ourselves. I know the common thing to do is do it your way, who cares what anybody thinks, and so what if the fans revolt, so I'm rebelling against that. Thief means something different to all of us, and that comes from all the different layers it has to tap into.

The fact that it does have a history is one of the major reasons I push to be as inclusive as possible. The story goes back to ancient times, and into the unknown future, through two more games yet to be screenwritten. The stories of all three games have become blended in places in my mind as I embrace them as a trilogy, one story in three parts. If an item's not critical to Garrett's arc, it still needs to be part of the fabric of that universe or there is a ripple effect across the board. Plus, I'm paying respect to what came before Thief that led to LGS implementing them as part of the game. Many game-play mechanics are surrogates for real-world counterparts that are much too complicated to build in, but we should think of it as reverse-engineering. I'm being very general because it applies to everything, but each thing needs to be looked at differently. I'm trying not to go the commercial route to taking a scalpel to the games. I'm hoping that most people who see the movie first, move on to discover and appreciate the games, and those who like the games, will enjoy the movie, too, both with little bafflement or WTF? moments arising directly from the changes--beyond what can be expected.

Digging up canon for The EYE is a particular passion of mine, reconciling the artwork, the cutscenes and briefings, the stuff that was cut out, the stuff that wasn't but seems to contradict because of what was, the stuff found in Thief Gold's "Goodies" folder, and what TDS did with it.