Mortis on 21/10/2009 at 07:24
Swinging : I feel the control scheme should be similar to ladders in most games. When the player is on the rope, you climb up and down by looking up or down and pressing the forward and back keys. You rotate around the rope with the mouse. To swing, you look forward and then use the forward and back keys to swing and get momentum. While swinging, vertical movement on the rope is 'locked', you cant climb or decend. You can jump off the rope by pressing the jump key. If you are swinging and want to climb or decend then you can either wait for your character to lose momentum naturally or press the opposite key i.e. back key while swinging forward to slow down the swinging faster.
I think this would be a decent mechanic and i think it is similar to the way swinging and the grappling hook function in Tomb Raider already and since Thief will be made on a modified engine of the same, it shouldnt be too hard to implement.
Rope Bridge : I think, according to the lore the rope arrow is just a regular arrow with a rope coiled around it in such a way that it deploys on impact right ? So my idea is when the rope arrow is selected, certain obvious and practical objects, if nearby, become frobbable. For example, a pillar, statue, gargoyle, torch holder, etc. Frobbing it secures the rope at your end. Then you can fire the arrow which is limited to a certain distance by the rope length. If you try and shoot too far, the rope tightens and stops the arrow which falls however the physics and terrain below it allow. You can reclaim it by frobbing the secured end and try again.
If the rope arrow sucessfully sticks in an appropriate object opposite you, then you have your rope bridge !
The next thing we need to address is if it can be reclaimed. There are three options :
1] The arrow cannot be reclaimed
2] It can be recliamed at either end
3] You need to unfasten it at one end and then reclaim it at the other (my preference as it makes it harder to keep your stock of rope arrows up and prevents the player from abusing it by tightroping all over the place to avoid guards and noisy floors)
Ooh, I almost forgot, maybe a broadhead in a wooden floor could be used as a makeshift anchor point.
Next, we come to the issue of how Garrett will move over the rope bridge. Three options that I can think of :
1] Tightrope : Garrett walks across like a circus performer but instead of standing, I think he should crouch and balance while crossing like Altair does for narrow beams in Assassins Creed, its just more stealthy and Thief-like. The advantage of this method is Garrett can either drop off or mantle onto a ledge at any point on the rope because the has his hands free. The disadvantage is not being able to cross if the rope is sloping upwards too much and the fiddliness of getting onto the rope if it is above waist height.
2] Hand over Hand : Garrett crosses the rope going hand over hand while hanging underneath it. The advantage is being able to cross even if the rope is at a steep slope and getting on the rope is smoother if it is above waist height. The disadvantage is only being able to drop off the rope along its length or at the end. You cannot mantle onto surfaces so the rope always has to go above the point you want to reach.
3] Both : Depends on the rope position relative to the player or maybe the crossing mode is selectable.
Thats all I have for now. Let me know what you guys think !! Other rope arrow usage idea are welcome. I think the artwork with the skewered Hammerite is interesting
Bakerman on 21/10/2009 at 12:43
I like the control scheme stuff for climbing and fastening rope arrows.
Quote Posted by Mortis
Rope Bridge : I think, according to the lore the rope arrow is just a regular arrow with a rope coiled around it in such a way that it deploys on impact right ?
I always assumed the rope was magic - the rope arrows themselves look pretty regular, and the rope will magically dissolve when you reclaim it. However, a non-magical rope arrow could easily be absorbed into the lore, I reckon. Much more easily, at least for fans, than fire arrows that are simply filled with gunpowder, for example :p.
Quote Posted by Mortis
3] You need to unfasten it at one end and then reclaim it at the other (my preference as it makes it harder to keep your stock of rope arrows up and prevents the player from abusing it by tightroping all over the place to avoid guards and noisy floors)
Fair enough, but it would be almost imporsible to do this - if you're using a rope arrow to get across a gap, it probably means you can't traverse any other way, so you wouldn't reasonably be wandering around to both ends to reclaim it. I do agree that it does make it more of a skill to conserve them, though.
Quote Posted by Mortis
1] Tightrope : Garrett walks across like a circus performer but instead of standing, I think he should crouch and balance while crossing like Altair does for narrow beams in Assassins Creed, its just more stealthy and Thief-like.
I'm not so warm to this approach - Garrett's no ninja.
SubJeff on 24/10/2009 at 10:54
Rope arrows in Theif are magic, in TDM they are mechanical.
When you have them selected you could have the option of tethering them with the frob in order to make a rope bridge. Of course then you'd need tetherable objects or surfaces. And using a broadhead to make a tether where there isn't ordinarily one is a good idea.
Beleg Cúthalion on 24/10/2009 at 20:24
There is as much magic in rope arrows as in Garrett's big invisible loot bag.
Mortis on 25/10/2009 at 07:00
I doubt the Rope arrows in Thief are magic, unless it has been mentioned somewhere. It just looks like the rope is growing out of nowhere and dissolving because of the game engine limitations and I guess for the sake of convenience. I dont see Garrett using spells to reactivate a used rope arrow but I do see him recoiling the rope.
jtr7 on 25/10/2009 at 07:56
That's just you wanting less fantasy in a fantasy game, and forgetting the hundreds of magical and alchemical items and phenomena that universe takes for granted regardless of opinion. The rope arrow breaks so many laws of physics, and no one can design such a thing. Vine arrows are okay, eh? Plucking these arrows from the wood while hanging on them is due to a limitation, eh? The TMA Intro movie showing it sink in by only its tip, wiggling, then becoming rigid, and then a rope uncoiling rapidly up and out from the end, and bearing Garrett's weight by that lightly sunk tip, as well as the shaft--which could not contain a rope and an uncoiling mechanism, nor have a rope trailing from it in flight--are the devs telling you it's not working through mundane craft and existing materials.
How many things need to be listed about what it does that cannot be done in real life, except through heavy modification and serious thought of every single step of carrying, firing, rope action, use, and reuse? They made a noisemaker arrow with a thicker shaft, why not the rope arrow? And they didn't remedy that for the TDS model, either. It would take a harpoon gun and the need for thick beams, rather than a standard shaft with a different head and little more than a cubic-inch of visible wood.:cool:
What the player can do with it in that Fantasy world is much more important than trying to design one in real life, when the magic of that world is a common and natural part of its laws of physics, nothing special, just needing more specialized occupations and skill-sets to harness it than we have.:tsktsk:
Beleg Cúthalion on 25/10/2009 at 08:31
There is still an apparent difference between the magical and non-magical elements in Thief. Saying that rope arrows are unrealistic (what I do as well) is just one thing. Saying that they ergo
must be magical completely ignores the possibility that it is simply a sort of unclean idea. Following this logic, Garrett's lootbag was magical as well, arrows shot into a wooden surface which are nonetheless easily retrievable are magic. Vanishing water, moss, fire and gas arrow shafts are magic. Garrett's fast-drying and smell-repellent clothes and gear.. well, you get the idea.
Quote Posted by jtr7
That's just you wanting less fantasy in a fantasy game, and forgetting the hundreds of magical and alchemical items and phenomena that universe takes for granted regardless of opinion.
No, that's actually making a difference between intended and actual game content and even - don't tell anyone - imperfect elements of the old Thief games. I think a lot of people don't have a problem with taking it for what it is.
jtr7 on 25/10/2009 at 08:46
Okey doke. Right on time, Beleg. You keep dismissing the manual and Intro scene as flawed or irrelevant, or the fact I took what you just said into account already.:erg: You can apply engine-limitation and time/budget-limitation to many many things, but in the end it's the fiction that matters more. They started with the grappling hook, then went to the ridiculous pronged arrow-head with the eye to tie a rope onto, then to the rope arrow as we've known it, demonstrating its unearthly properties in more detail in the Intro, and cementing the fiction they settled with. They also started with a functional big crossbow, and changed it to the bows we know. And they chose a sword over a dagger--and the arguments over that are ridiculous.
You're an ass if you think I don't know about or admit to the numerous flaws of all the games, so you can stuff that crap. :mad:
If the devs hadn't worked it into the fiction, I'm really curious to know what you think would've been the approach if there were none of those engine limitations. You're gonna have to be clever. I don't mean the clanking grappling hook and inability of it to attach to anything that isn't railing, pipes, and narrow beams, requiring higher object and brush counts to give the player half as much freedom to pick a spot they want. It also would mean Garrett would carry two or more hooks and ropes to do some things (or have them also redesigned to omit use of multiple ropes), but at least that wouldn't seem weird since he carries two full lockers of gear on his person.
Beleg Cúthalion on 25/10/2009 at 10:45
The manual shows a magical rope arrow? I can just think of the images in the German walkthrough book right now and although they're probably not as official, the rope arrow there is – despite the elemental arrows – downright natural (and even less functional, but that's a sheer design issue). The intro scene just shows a very cheap arrowhead penetration scene, about as realistic as Garrett extinguishing the lamp though its glass cover while walking by in the scene shortly afterwards. They're not realistic, I get the point, but there is no sign of magic either. But I see no sense in inventing "fiction" just because it "matters more". This way we're ending up at the "Wizards did it" argument and you're apparently NOT taking into account what I said, at least not consequently. Consequent would be to say: Yes, it probably is a blurry construction due to technical limits, so as soon as we've overcome these issues, we can drop the fiddling.
Quote Posted by jtr7
You're an ass if you think I don't know about or admit to the numerous flaws of all the games, so you can stuff that crap.
The funny thing is, everytime I try to point out the flaws of the old games (even those not admitted by the devs), especially in those by trend unobjective TDS discussions, I get a whole bunch of you-don't-respect/understand-the-Thief-games accusations, as if any serious examination was unwanted as soon as it crossed personal taste or adaption.
Captain Spandex on 27/10/2009 at 00:33
Quote Posted by Bakerman
I'm not so warm to this approach - Garrett's no ninja.
You and I clearly have different concepts of what a 'ninja' is.
Uses shadows to hide? Check.
Wears all black to blend in with said shadows? Check.
Remains still and quiet for long periods until danger passes? Checkeroo.
I mean, I could check off a few more depending on play style:
Backstabs? Check.
Attacks opponents from behind in general? Check.
Uses speed and surprise to disappear when spotted? Well, the flashbomb / run like hell combo seems essentially the same as the 'drop smoke pellet / run like hell' combo, so sure.
Hell, the attitude is sort of the same, even. Real life ninja were sardonic, selfish assholes who weren't above petty theft or throwing sand in their opponent's eyes to get the job done. In fiction, they're typically depicted as having a 'code of honor', but that's sort of a western invention.
Anyhow, I really don't think 'rope bridges' would detract too much from Garrett's thiefyness. Maybe a modified version? Shoot a rope arrow across an impassable expanse and just hang from the rope like a laundry-line and cross to the other side. Just thinking out loud, here.
