Soul Shaker on 18/4/2006 at 02:30
No variation.
It's like going into any level, and having every guard standing next to an alarm switch. Instead of having a few alerts now and then, it's always full alert, all day, everyday. I'd find that quite boring, but I'm not sure about you.
It'd be fun at first, but, every level would be the same in essence.
But, there would be no way to change, or stop it.
The consequences are boredom, frustration, and poor design. It may be good in 1 or 2 levels, where say, everything is alert, looking for you, such as [SPOILER]blackmail, where after truart's murder, it's pretty hairy[/SPOILER], which is a nice change and a challenge, but can you imagine every single level like that, as soon as a guard is alerted? No thanks.
But, after about 15 minutes of seeing something, I would give up. The guards are also potrayed, as stupid, lazy, bored, and itching for a fight. Stupid- well, they will think stupid things, or do something stupid, like attribute a noise to something that wouldn't do it. Lazy- a given. They don't wanna search for too long, because, well, it's boring. Bored- searching around for what could be your own imagination time and time again...Itching for a fight- well, they are lazy, and that would explain why they attempt to kill you rather than capture you.
I'm trying to explain the points above as clearly as possible, but, I justt can't really think of an easy way to get them across, so sorry if some of it doesn't make too much sense.
Domarius on 18/4/2006 at 03:41
I see what you're saying, but I think there is a middleground - we are actually trying for something like this in TDM.
If a guard sees something that is definetly an emergency - confirmed sight of you, or a dead body, they shouldn't calm down, and they should go get help. They should guard the last entrance they saw you go through.
On a lower difficulty setting, they would still eventually calm down, but not on the expert setting.
Soul Shaker on 18/4/2006 at 07:39
Listen to the TDS dialogue: *Sees body* "Murdered?!?! Alright, who did this?!" (or something along the lines of that) *searches, gives up* "The murderer musta come here to do what he came here to do and ran off" (pretty close to that). In other words, they assume you have fled the scene, so I would assume after a longer time period they would calm down, to more of a passive level 2 alertness (no searching, but will be very suspicious of the tiniest noise or change). Try doing something like that, really, really on edge for a few minutes, and a slow calm down to nothing (you probably would have finished the map by then). Just nothing overly permanent...
See, my views change throughout the day :weird: Just 5 hours ago, I was against it, now I'm supporting it...
Well, at least i'm keeping an objective view...for once :cool:
Vigil on 18/4/2006 at 10:51
Soul Shaker already explained the guts of it, but to comment further: all that permanently alert AIs would do is make the game even harder for beginner players, who get spotted often and hence would have to deal with a mission full of permanently alert AIs. They would not make the game significantly more challenging for experienced players, who don't get spotted often, and hence may have to deal with only one or two alert AIs on the players' own terms. More player frustration and quicker reloading, for what? The joy of knowing that the mistakes you're not making would have harsher consequences?
Furthermore, AIs that calm down after a certain amount of time are not just an important conscession to playability, but to mission design in general. If the mission had to be playable when all AIs were on full alert (as would likely happen, were there no calm-down) then it would be that much harder to make the mission challenging when the AIs were <i>not</i> alert. More hiding places, more forgiving floor surfaces, more AI-neutralising tools etc. would all have to be added to give the player a chance against the more dedicated AI. Hence, the difficulty balance of the game shifts even more abruptly and it becomes hard work for the designer to keep it from becoming a cakewalk when the AIs are not alert - a state which should compose the majority of the game.
A related issue to these is the reason that the Thief:DS designers consciously avoided alarm systems: what they termed the "cascading blunder scenario", where a single player screwup (i.e. getting seen) quickly snowballs into an inescapable series of further screwups as every AI on the level becomes alerted. The average player then feels not only frustrated but incompetent, and reloads their savegame rather than continue playing a mission they have 'failed'. The effort put into making the AIs act more believable when enraged is then wasted.
That there are players who enjoy the additional challenge these scenarios provide (and who deliberately seek them out, such as my old habit of triggering Ramirez' alarm when I'm done) does not mean that it is a wise game design decision to make it easier for these scenarios to occur. You could track down and ask the playtesting teams of all 3 games to elaborate and confirm, but the consequences are plain to see if you sit down and think it through.
PS: thanks for the passive aggressive <i>[sic]</i>ing. "Real old, real fast" is a manner of speech, just like "ain't".
Domarius on 18/4/2006 at 14:31
Quote Posted by Vigil
Soul Shaker already explained the guts of it, but to comment further: all that permanently alert AIs would do is make the game even harder for beginner players, who get spotted often and hence would have to deal with a mission full of permanently alert AIs. They would not make the game significantly more challenging for experienced players, who don't get spotted often, and hence may have to deal with only one or two alert AIs on the players' own terms. More player frustration and quicker reloading, for what? The joy of knowing that the mistakes you're not making would have harsher consequences?
Like I already said - only the expert setting would be this severe - beginners, naturally, would not choose this setting.
And since alertness affects the chance of the AI seeing or hearing you, I'd say it does make it harder for experienced players trying to sneak past.
Vigil on 18/4/2006 at 14:38
Not really. The common proposal for no calmdowns after major events only practically affects alert level 3. The awareness levels that experienced players spend almost all of their time dealing with (1 and 2) are unaffected. To repeat the point: <i>Experienced players don't deal with fully alert AIs anywhere near as often as inexperienced players do</i>.
Domarius on 18/4/2006 at 15:20
Well firstly, you're quoting game numbers like you know how TDM is programmed.
Secondly, you're assuming experienced players play flawlessly. With the exception of people who are in the habit of quickloading/quicksaving every little screw-up/acheivement, this isn't reality.
In reality, you know the rammifcations of screwing up are a lot worse, so you'll be more tense about it and it'll be more exciting. There's no guarentee every AI in the level will be running around like a chicken with it's head cut off - its just something a bit more intelligent than "Oh well, can't do anything about that dead guy. Back to work as usual."
Currently, if you stuff up, there's always the knowledge that if you wait around long enough, everything will be hunky-dory again. As far as I'm concerned, in this type of game, that is similar to waiting around for your health to replenish itself in an FPS.
Vigil on 18/4/2006 at 15:47
I wasn't talking about TDM; I assumed your comment about awareness sensitivity referred to Thief 1 and 2, which was what I've been discussing all along. Nor am I assuming experienced players do play flawlessly or twitch-reload; my point was that experienced players deal a whole lot less with fully-active AI than inexperienced players, not that they never have to deal with them at all. Changes to full-alert behaviour impact inexperienced players far more than they impact experienced players.
As far as the threat of ramifications go: this is a good point, but in my opinion at least the threat of pursuit and attack are ample enough, and the existence of a calm-down period does not immediately affect the tension of a screwup. I don't think "ho-hum, I'll just wait a bit", I think "oh fuck, I'd better wait a bit".
Granted you're not suggesting extremes where the whole level is scampering around baying for your blood, but nor is it currently really as unrealistic as "oh well, back to work". In Thief 1 and 2 it takes a good minute with no stimulus whatsoever for a guard to calm down from bellowing down the heavens to the point where they grudgingly return to their patrol (45 seconds down from alert 3 + 8 seconds down from alert 2); and even then they are permanently much twitchier.
Domarius on 18/4/2006 at 16:05
Well see what I'm proposing is not much different - AI will go and intelligently rouse other AI to aid them in their hunt for you, and when they realise they've lost you, they will stand guard at an entrance (if there is no other way out), and other similar things, otherwise they will return back to their patrol - with permamently heightened awareness.
Elentari on 18/4/2006 at 20:25
How about instead of a permanent alert. . .since it *IS* logical after a time of search they'd figure the intruder had fled (of course, if they thought about it, they'd search better too, so you'd HAVE to flee, instead of perching in some dark corner nearby that they don't even come near. . .lol) they just perform some more intelligent choices. LIke was suggested, get help - sure they often DO run for help, but its rare that anyone actually comes - come back with a gang to search then realize the intruder has fled and go back to what they were doing.
What I'd also like to see is a bit more intelligence as well. IE. . .stop blaming Garrett for everything!! lol For instance, last night I was playing TG and was in the lost city sneaking around. I darted behind one guard and into a hole leading to a small room off the room the two guards were in and start snatching up loot, only to hear them scream about an intruder and that they were being attacked from the shadows. Huh?! So I sneaked back to the little entrance and peered around only to discover one guard was standing in the middle of the brazier getting roasted alive and screaming about being attacked while the other was hunting around for this attacker. Well. . .dimbulb get off the fire!! lol
I'd like to see them respond a bit more 'normally' - while I Like the fact that thety kill themselves at random (and thereby remove themselves from my path)I'd like the ones around them not to go into search mode because their partner just committed suicide. This was specially pronounced in TDS where they'd have street fights, or the guards would kill some taffer then blame GARRETT for just happening to walk up at the wrong time. I mean, sheesh.
That being said, I realize that the programming only has so much it can do. But still. :)
How about a virtual reality thief game? Or, like a holodeck that you could tweak and make more realistic yourself? lol
