Stan_The_Thief on 17/10/2010 at 21:31
Quote Posted by van HellSing
Why do you think it's cheesy? How would you have it end instead?
It's cheesy because it's like an ending for a children's movie.
I became quite disengaged from the plot halfway into the game, so my mind didn't work out any preferable ending to what I thought was an unworthy plot. (But if I were to take a shot at it now, I'd say I would have ended it the way
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3YKBOkfmbU) The Secret Adventures of Tom Thumb ended. Now that's a proto-Thief classic! :))
Not that I didn't enjoy the occasional Thief-like missions and moments spliced here and there, they never added up into a coherent, enjoyable game the way T1/TG and T2 both did.
I guess it all depended on what was the 'muse', the inspiration, of the devs when they made the game. In the games you see or sense the glimmers of what inspired the authors, and in T1 & T2 it was a knowledge of medieval art and history, including the history of religion, among other things. But T3 lacked this inspirational basis, apparently. Or it was inspired by more mundane stuff, I don't know. T3 devs themselves said that for inspiration they used to have movie nights, where they would get together to watch movies that had the elements they wanted to imbue in the game. So, they plugged a little bit of everything into it and ended up with a whole lot of nothing.
van HellSing on 17/10/2010 at 22:03
So does that mean you also hate the beginning of TDP because it's like the beginning to a children's movie? :p
Also, I would argue that TDS' story is the most coherent of the three games. TDP sure took its time before the main arc actually started, and TMA, while somewhat more directed, had elements which really strained the suspension of disbelief for me, like the whole Garrett/Viktoria pseudo-romance.
In contrast, I felt pretty much everything about the story in TDS fell nicely into place and worked as a whole, building from TMA's ending ("Tell me."), continuing Garrett's reluctant change and finally culminating in him accepting his role as the "True Keeper".
Brian The Dog on 17/10/2010 at 22:12
Quote Posted by MILO1985
TDS is a travisty, dumbed down from the ground up to coddle to console audience.
We should pretend it never happened.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but if you pretend Thief 3 never happened, then you're missing out on a really good Garrett story. I forced myself to finish certain levels because I wanted to see the story unfurl. Plus certain levels were really well done (Shalebridge Cradle, Moira's Mansion, the Museum spring to mind) and, whilst not
Life of the Party in scope, were still well done.
Stan_The_Thief on 18/10/2010 at 07:29
Quote Posted by van HellSing
So does that mean you also hate the beginning of TDP because it's like the beginning to a children's movie? :p
The beginning wasn't similar to the ending. For one, according to the plot, the Keepers weren't then a magical, paramilitary powerhouse vying for city-wide presence, but a guild of analysts and explorers using their covert skills to achieve their goals and to remain unknown. It's common for guilds to take in apprentices.
Secondly, in general, a beginning can only be as good as the successive plot, because it becomes only an accessory to the plot as it unfolds, but an ending, contrariwise, must justify the plot: in the end you realize that the story must have oscillated around the straight path to just this ending. Which in T3 is quite cheesy and awkward. "Oh, so all this trouble was so that the whole lot of them could roll away and a replacement Keeper/Thief arrangement could step in, and it's this girl. What!?"
Sure, as you say, Thief 2 had a few out-of-character moments, but they were well compensated for, I believe. And they were rare and, frankly, a matter of taste (some people liked them, some didn't). But TDS was made up of them, it was centered around them, and they were shamelessly dovetailed into the hallowed original plot. And they were driven home again and again and again, every step of the way, till finally you said, "Fuck it. I've had enough of this. They've ruined this installment of the game."
Stan_The_Thief on 18/10/2010 at 07:38
Quote Posted by Brian The Dog
certain levels were really well done
More is the pity. You can really see
parts of the game that must have taken a ton of designer work to create. And there were original people from LGS working at this project, too, which makes it even sadder to see this work go to waste. But Ion Storm tried sitting on two chairs at once, pandering to the console audiences and still hoping to retain the special feel of the original games.
Melan on 18/10/2010 at 08:08
Quote Posted by Brian The Dog
But I really like the story in Thief 3 (with the exception of
Orland's stupidity with those notes). I actually like the story in Thief 3 more than that of Thief 2. I just am not too impressed with the game engine/maps they used to make the story unfold.
Same here. Generally great story with shades of Lankhmar and the Ffahrd/Grey Mouser stories throughout (the Hag is a classical Fritz Leiber villain, and very appropriate for Thief). The problem is that this story was rather underexplored
within missions, since the readables were few and too functional, without the intricate hints and subtle interrelations of the earlier games. (Like the subplot of Bafford and Ramirez's little side-business in TDP). I think that's a clear example of "mainstreaming", and even shows in the level of writing. I guess they wanted to make sure every dumbass in the focus group would understand it.
The difference is even more painful now that I am playing
The Cabal after replaying TDS - tremendous, tremendous difference. Cabal has great readables, and from what I have seen, is pretty much TDS done right.
