I_Hate_Burricks on 20/12/2005 at 04:59
In the thread about the Precursors and the Kurshok, there was some discussion about the Trickster's nature and how it was he, a god, could die. Someone also brought up the concept of avatars. That got me thinking, and here's my theory: the Trickster can't be killed, but the forms he take can be destroyed. It's kind of like how Buddhists believe the Dalai Lama is Buddha reincarnated.
You'll notice throughout the series that his worshippers refer to him in as taking many forms. The Kurshoks call him "Leaf King" or "Leaf-Devil", so maybe he was some kind of plant creature during their time before he became the half-goat, half-man that we saw in TDP. This would explain why the Pagans still worship him after his so-called death: they could be waiting for him to take a new form. Any thoughts?
kamyk on 20/12/2005 at 05:31
Only that I agree insofar as the Trickster as we see him being only an avatar of the actual deity, and therefore only killable in the sense of destruction of that avatar.
Mind you, in many fictional works there has been the destruction of actual Deities themselves (most notably in relation to books published by TSR corp). But those instances always seem to be rather extreme in what it actually takes to do that.
For example, in the Dragonlance series, Raistlin challenges the Gods, and wins. But he doesn't accomplish that just by stealing an artifact (and his success results in extreme consequences). Or the series based on Forgotten Realms (forget the titles right now). The actual Gods are banished from the "heavens" to the material plane, where they become vulnerable. In this example, the Gods actually are entirely channeled into their avatars, and have no other existence beyond it.
I don't get a sense of any sort of imposed exile, or such from the interactions with the Trickster. As I said before, I think it far more likely that he was only an avatar of the actual deity.
Not at all to minimize the importance, or skill of our friend Garret, but the actions resulting in the "death" of the Trickster just don't seem to be involved or conclusive enough to actually kill a God. On the other hand, if the Trickster were only a demi-god, then maybe...
But to me anyway, I more get the sense of the Trickster, and the Builder being dynamic opposites. Yin and Yang. Order and Chaos, Nature and Technology. Equal opposites.
Sendai on 21/12/2005 at 09:45
They said the Trickster we saw in the game was a god, the god the Pagans worshipped, Viktoria's friend, etc.
DreadLord on 22/12/2005 at 18:00
I wonder what would be the "ideal" world for the trickster?
Does he want to kill all humans or just civilisation?
If the latter is true which "state" of civilisation does he want to destroy?
Is he against tecnology/human intelligence in all its forms? (Even Stone-Age tools....)
Which tec level does he want to destroy? Is he just against steam engines and electric lights?
Would a civilisation with the tec level of normal Dark-Ages be okay for him (Castles, steel forged weapons, etc....)
Are only the newer-tecnologies the rason for his behaviour?
kamyk on 22/12/2005 at 18:02
Good questions. Of course, the Pagans (at least the ones from TMA) lived in cabins, so they must have used some form of tool to build them, unless they just moved into an abandoned village.
DreadLord on 22/12/2005 at 18:10
Quote Posted by kamyk
Good questions. Of course, the Pagans (at least the ones from TMA) lived in cabins, so they must have used some form of tool to build them, unless they just moved into an abandoned village.
Yep imo he does respect the use of tecnology. But when this tecnology starts to influence the respect/fear for the nature (electric lights destroy the human fear for the night ..for exemple)
..then he starts to get angry because these inventions somehow diminish his influence....
kamyk on 22/12/2005 at 18:43
That's about where I am on this too. I don't think the Trickster is totally anti-progress, just any progress that infringes on his domain.
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
There is no evil, no devil poking you with his poker in a cavernous world. It is a fantasy of the fretted, antique minds; biting their nails it the orchestration of making sure their egos go beyond death, and that another who's way of life is incompatible with their own should be made sure to suffer, indefinitely, if possible.
This is fantasy, not a class on Theology (which I enjoyed in college). I don't need to have an existing Devil in our own world to be able to theorize on the existence of a fictional version in a fictional setting. I myself happen to be religiously eclectic, including Wicca, Christianity, Agnosticism, Shamanism, and Zen, so I heavily debate the existence of an actual Devil myself. But that in no way should limit my
imagination in a
fictional setting. Outside of the fictional setting, I mostly agree.
----------
I am also somewhat curious about the general attitude I seem to see regarding the topic of the Trickster. Does the fact that he is "dead" mean that no one should have any further interest in discussing him?
DreadLord on 22/12/2005 at 22:56
Huh ? I dont think so.....
Another interesting question: Had the other "Old Gods" (which definitely exist in the Thief universe....Garrett mentioned it)
the same attitude as the Trickster? Were all of them anti-progressive/nature-loving?
Yametha on 22/12/2005 at 23:59
Replying to DreadLord
I think he wants people to turn back to the old ways, and worship him, and respect the forest. I imagine he would be completely okay with technology if It didn't cause people to 'stray from the path'. However since it does, he is against it.
There may be an aditional dynamic that the technology was created by the hammerites, and we all know what he thinks of them!
Re: The Old Gods
I wonder, was the deity (I'm assuming it was a deity) represented by the Cthulu statue in Karath Din one of the old gods? Maybe one that has since perished once worship fell away? Or maybe it was the other way round, and the death of the god led to the fall of Karath Din
DreadLord on 23/12/2005 at 01:22
Maybe Big C and the Trickster are both on of thr Old Gods (Or maybe together they are The Old Gods)
While the Trickster is anti-progressive in that regard (electric lights) Big C motivated the Precursor to create tecnologies like that....
Thats why the Trickster buried Karath-Din and killed his brethren....
