fourthrebirth on 16/1/2007 at 18:42
Hi everyone.
I was wondering if there are anyone that would be interested in knowing the meanings of the Keepers' Glyphs. Is there a site somewhere that would contain some sort of lexicon? How do one make a phrase, put down ideas and concepts using the Keepers' Glyphs? Is it structured? Did the makers of Thief DP intended any meaning to those glyphs? Or were they just a strange ensemble of lines and symbols destined to mystify the players? Is its structure, syntax and vocabulary good enough to be put on Omniglot.com?
Could it have its place along with other languages such as Quenyan (LOTR), Cyrth (LOTR), Standard Galactic Alphabet (Commander Keen), Futurama (form the animation series), and D'ni (Myst, Riven, Myst3, 4, 5, UruCC)?
Ominous cowl on 16/1/2007 at 19:30
Your attempt is comparable to trying to find a grammar structure and distinguished words in the Cragscleft zombie's noises.
...but, on the other hand, the latter actually makes sense. Keep researching, but I'd propose to start with the groans'n'moans first.
R Soul on 16/1/2007 at 19:31
I doubt the makers of a computer game would go to the trouble of creating an entirely new language. The fans on the other hand...
However, I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to ensure that the glyphs they came up with were not used in contradictory ways. For example, if a glyph was seen at the entrance to some dangerous area, it would make sense to ensure that it was not also seen at the entrance to a Keeper compound.
Ominous cowl on 16/1/2007 at 19:46
Quote Posted by R Soul
The fans on the other hand...
Yes, it is always amusing how far the TTLG folk goes with their speculations. Trying to write in the
Keeper's ways almost seems sensible to me here. ;-)
jtr7 on 18/1/2007 at 05:59
Speculation is great geeky fun as long as non-canon is never mistaken for canon. The most annoying part is when people can't tell where the poster's coming from.:erg:
Is there an emoticon for "I'm just having fun, speculatin'. I don't believe my own BS (B.rain S.torms) are factual?":D
clearing on 18/1/2007 at 09:29
fourthrebirth, for help (
http://thief.nov.ru/glyphs.htm) here is glyph list.
(
http://thief.nov.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) Here some answers to your question on russian language.
Inline Image:
http://www.umich.edu/~proflame/images/mirror/glyph.gif101 глиф - достаточно просто.. разработчики вложили в него смысл Dark Project 2 (Вор часть 2), но судя по наличии лука как основного элемента и лишь части руки, эможно предроложить что смысл его в понятии скрытность... (скриншот можно снять с немецкого сайта Эйдос о Thief 2)
21- крайне похож на 101, начертание отличается такде как знакми зираганы от катаканы, мы знаем что 21 это взято из написанной от руки книги провидицы.
102 имеет явное сходство со 101... то есть если предположить что эта надпись нанесена с целью предостережения, а мы помним что эта связка глифов наодится перед входом в логово крейманов, то "осторожно (еще один вариант для 101 глифа) опасность и слева и справа (снизу сверху, со всех сторон)". Почему со всех сторон потому что 101 глиф взят в скобки, или находится посередине между двумя одинаковыми глифами имеющие противоположное значение, судя потому что они перевернуты друг относительно друга.
Inline Image:
http://www.goat-roast.com/Petroglyphs/Fig%20CP-1.jpg104 - возможно значение статуя, замереть, стагнация... Он же 064
Серия 069-074 встечается и в первой и в третьей части в основном как оформлением игры, но точно известно что 074 это замок (в смысле который запирает двери, это значеине открывается при просмотре промороликов Вора 3). Эта серия также встречается во всех известный положениях и с поворотом налево кажлого знака и направо и кверху ногами..., есть вероятно что например 074 переврнутый это "закрытый замок", 074 в положении как сейчас на сайте "вскрытый замок".. Также это значение Storyline, история, то есть должны быть какие то связи между замком и историей...
070- картина, изображение, портрет , все что связано с нарисованной копией чего либо... (далеко ходить не надо сайт Thief нам естьподписи к этим знакам, естественно в контексте реального мира), так что серия 069-074 все понятно.
089- это совершенно правильно знак появляющися на башке Трикстера, но значение его скорее всего должно быть более подробное, особенно есть учесть что это также составной глиф, который состоит из 88 и еще какого то одного (такая же система у 18 глифа). Этот отдельный глиф на мой взгляд означает Бог, а 88 означает обман. также как 18 состоит из БОг и Молот (или Плуг или Труд рчень похож глиф на плуг, или на молот). 089 - Бог Обмана (Триктера с индейского так и переводится) 018 Создатель (Бог Молота, Труда)
etc...........
fourthrebirth on 18/1/2007 at 15:16
Thanks! At least it is a mighty good start. I know some other fans who will be very interested:thumb:
TafferMonkeys! on 21/1/2007 at 15:23
First and foremost, before I say anything else: "Good luck -- you're gonna need it". :thumb:
Now, that being said, there are definately MANY different aspects to consider if you're ACTUALLY going to try and decode Keeper Glyphs. I'm sure you have some idea what you're doing (so I don't want to sound patronizing) but if I may i'll share some advice on how I think would be a good way to approach trying this.
*My first bit of advice would be to try and find any threads or posts here on TTLG mentioning anything about the original designer's ideas behind creating the glyphs. I'm sure they had to be inspired by some form of language or art to come up with the glyphs and someone might know what it was that impressed them. Knowing that would help set a base to work from.
*Second, have a look in all three Thief games to get some idea what glyphs are used where (Thief 3 SEEMS like the one that most uses them in gameplay). Like R soul said the developers would have at least made sure the same glyph didn't contradict itself. Get a good feel for what glyphs are found where and what they tend to lead to (Keeper compounds; hiding areas; dangerous ruins; ect) and keep general meaning notes on what you do find. Some glyphs are very obvious and practically explained in the gameplay. This includes how they're used in cutscenes; gameplay; ect.
*Third, rather you find out what inspired the original developers to create the glyphs (an official base), or you just have to use one that's similar (unofficial, personally created base), it might be a good idea to use an existing language as a structure to build from. They're almost certainly pictographs that rely more on hard lines; curves and circles than anything more detailed like Egyptian Hieroglyphs or even most of the Lost City hieroglyphs from Thief 1 and 2. I'm not familiar with old-world languages that well, but for some reason looking at the Keeper Glyphs reminds me of something from WAY back in ancient history, like before phonetic alphabets were formed (which symbology also lead to the creation of a phonetic alphabit). I'm refering to, like, how the letter "A" used to once represent an ox or cow, for example. Honestly, if I didn't know any better, i'd swear the glyphs almost look like a mix of early Druidic or Sumerian mixed with an Eastern Asian language flair (like Chinese or Vietnamese). I KNOW i've seen a very similar language to Keeper Glyphs, but I just can't remember what. Western European maybe?
*Fourth, learn the history of the Keeper Glyphs. Knowing this can help establish a concept of how old the language is and in what "concept" it was created. Most fiction follows a similar cultural evolution to actual history (pre-cultural to ancient times [ala Rome; Egypt; ect.] to dark age to medieval to renaissance to industrial age to ect.) so knowing the possible age the glyphs were created in might help establish what similar cultural real language could have inspired (or at least matches) "Keeper". Most would tell you the "Lost City" language is VERY similar in appearance to South American languages like Mayan or Incan. "Keeper" seems very ancient European agrarian to me (among many others, so don't hold me to that). Really, the only way you're going to learn that is to play all three Thief games from beginning to end and note everything related to the Keepers and the glyphs.
Also, remember that the glyphs were used by Gamall (or "The Hag") as a form of magic, which might mean they were originally created to be incantations like in Alchemy or Shamanic rituals and only became a language later on, meaning that the Keepers might have deciphered them into a readable language after-the-fact. I would imagine Keeper Cadica wasn't there just to look wise (Not to mention the fact that reading the runes mystically aged her beyond her years).
Another thing to keep in mind too is to make sure the glyph IS a Keeper glyph. I've noticed "the eye" glyph used by both Keepers AND Pagans freely, which might mean: 1) The Pagans created it and the Keepers use their symbol to recognize them, or 2) Both Keepers and Pagans use the same glyph to recognize The Trickster (or something generally related like the Pagans as a whole or The Maw or all of the above) and THAT would add some weight to the Glyphs being a potential ancient language (since it would have to go back probably even further than the Keepers have been around). Same goes for the Hammerites and the hammer glyph.
There's probably more i'm forgetting to mention, but that should help you get started i'd think. I'm honestly no expert, but it all does play off of common sense so there might be some stable wisdom in there. At the very least it'll add some weight to whatever you end up using if you create a "Keeper Glyph" language. At the very least keep in mind pictographs often embody an entire concept ("Safe"; "Day"; "Danger") and usually don't use phonetic references like "an"; "is"; or "to". Of course maybe i'm mistaken there, in which case excuse me. Translating an East Asian language like Japanese Kanji would be a good example though.
Anyway, that's just my outlook on it. Best wishes on figuring it out and, again, "Good luck". :thumb:
Oh, and I bet I COULD translate all the zombies in Thief, Ominous cowl. I bet ANYONE could if they knew the secret. :sly:
Ominous cowl on 21/1/2007 at 15:29
Hm, I have to start a thread as well!
...this will be some serious research indeed.
