Mortal Monkey on 21/1/2007 at 16:22
Quote Posted by TafferMonkeys!
Notice certain similarities? :cheeky:
Not really, no.
CS05 is probably your best lead:
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http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/842/metalageglyphs7fa.jpgI can't really see the big similarity between these and those TDP "Keeper" glyphs, but I'm sure you can.
TafferMonkeys! on 21/1/2007 at 17:05
Ok, let me show you then....
Here is the "Anglo-Saxon Futhorc" from the same Ominglot.com page:
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http://www.omniglot.com/images/writing/asrunes.gifNow here's two of the Keeper Glyphs as seen from (
http://thief.nov.ru/glyphs.htm:)
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http://thief.nov.ru/Glyps/glyph091_s.gifInline Image:
http://thief.nov.ru/Glyps/glyph092_s.gif....If you look at the "lng (a god) ng" rune and the "epel (land/estate) ce" runes from the Anglo-Saxon Futhorc, and compare them to the two Glyphs above, they look ALMOST exactly the same. Aside from some small differences (and the fact one of those glyphs is the Glyph of Unbinding) there are many close similarities. It wouldn't be impossible for the developers to have been influenced by more than one runic alphabet and just decided to mix them -- and the runes -- together. Add or subtract a line of dot from the rune; turn it around or combine two runes together; and there you have it: "Keeper Glyph".
Mind you I can't read these runes, nor do I know all the runes in these alphabets; i'm just matching them. I could even be completely wrong and just have found an interesting coincidence here. It just seems like it COULD have potentially inspired the creation of the Keeper Glyphs in Thief. They seem VERY alike though. Does anyone else notice the likeness of the Glyphs wholly or partly to the runes?
Mortal Monkey on 23/1/2007 at 09:19
Yeah, those random lines sure do look almost exactly like one another.
But wait! These roman numerals looks even more like some of them:
X I
Obviously I must conclude that these "Anglo-Saxon Futhorc" runes are actually related to roman numerals. I'm sorry, but your theory does not hold as much water as mine does.
Anyway, we weren't talking about the inspirational source for the "Keeper" glyphs, but what they actually mean.
dlw6 on 23/1/2007 at 09:43
Norse futhark runes, as originally learned (in legend) by Odin, were at first used for magic, then to represent concepts (for example when fortune-telling) and finally as an alphabet. That's the only similarity I see with Keeper glyphs.
Then again, the "Danish futhark" runes pictures above are quite different from the Elder futhark runes I'm familiar with, or the several other versions of futhark used around northern Europe pre-1200, because the old runes were all linear. The theory is that they chose linear forms becaue such are easier to carve than curves, and they did their writing with a knife or chisel not a pen. Since wood, bone, and stone can survive 1000 years but leather and paper doesn't in that part of the world, the theory cannot be proved or disproved with current evidence.
The names of the runes varied too, what your source calls "thorn" mine call "thinguz" even though they're both the "th" sound and the third letter of the alphabet (hence the name "futhark" for the first 5 letters).
My theory is the game designers made up a written language that looked interesting. Not every fiction writer is a linguist with no deadlines to meet, as Tolkien was. And even he borrowed a lot from Norse myths.
Don
TafferMonkeys! on 25/1/2007 at 03:21
Mortal Monkey:
Quote:
Yeah, those random lines sure do look almost exactly like one another.
But wait! These roman numerals looks even more like some of them:
X I
Ok, smartass. :p
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Obviously I must conclude that these "Anglo-Saxon Futhorc" runes are actually related to roman numerals. I'm sorry, but your theory does not hold as much water as mine does.
Your theory being WHAT, exactly?
They could be, and they could also have originated from the Goths. No one's entirely certain. WHERE they come from doesn't actually matter, the point IS that the Keeper Glyphs LOOK more like the Futhorc runic alphabet in its various stages than most anything else. Believe me, i've spent the past few days looking at every ancient language from Arabic to Venetic I could think of that had a picture of its written alphabet. Roman numerals use a predominant series of I, V, and X until about number 40, in which you start seeing the emergence of L, C, D, M, and V. It would take quite a bit more effort to combine and imagine new runes from Roman numerals than from Futhorc in this particular case.
By the way, another reason I looked at the Futhorc was because when Thief was first being created (before it was "Thief") the developers were considering a game set in a dark, reverse version of Camelot (if I remember correctly). Camelot was set in a time when Norse vikings were still raiding the English coast, so it's all-too-easy for part of the Glyph inspiration to come from that related region to Arthurian legend. Yes, the Romans had occupied England before then, but again it's more about the "Arthurian" setting; it's relation to and from "Thief", and that would more likely connect to the Futhorc in a few ways.
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Anyway, we weren't talking about the inspirational source for the "Keeper" glyphs, but what they actually mean.
Right, and like has already been made clear before you posted, it's more than likely the creators didn't sit and create an entire language just for Thief. The way I read the very first post in this thread, it was a mix of if there was any translation of the Glyphs AND if anyone would be interested in learning what they ment. The latter led me to believe the idea of someone trying to translate them was being considered, and that's why I started talking about the best ways to try and translate it with what little is available. To do THAT, you need to figure out what likely inspired them -- ergo, my theory of "Futhorc". Yeah, they could have just doodled some lines and said "Ok! That's it!" -- but it's probably more likely they saw something interesting, said "Hey, that looks good. Let's make-up something like THAT" and made-up the Glyphs that way. Most people i've known that create fictional runes; languages; ect. tend to look for some form of inspiration before they just "make something up". THAT is where I get my perception on this. Maybe that's not you, but some people do that.
Besides, I don't see YOU trying to figure it out, Mortal Monkey. :p :laff:
dlw6:
Quote:
Norse futhark runes, as originally learned (in legend) by Odin, were at first used for magic, then to represent concepts (for example when fortune-telling) and finally as an alphabet. That's the only similarity I see with Keeper glyphs.
That's part of what I was trying to convey, yes. Looking at the story of Thief alone (especially Thief 3) makes me think that. The other part was how they looked. I don't want to paste the Glyphs into this post (8 picture post limit), but going back up to my first post with four of the Keeper Glyphs (left to right)....
-The first Glyph looks alot like a T-crossed version of the "R" rune in the "Danish Futhark" in that post.
-Second Glyph looks like the "U" rune in the included "Gothenburg / Bohuslän Runes", but could also be a combination of "G" and "oh"/"K" runes.
-Third Glyph kinda reminds me of an upside down "M" rune, but I see plenty of other combinations that don't take alot of effort to put together too.
-Fourth Glyph pretty much looks like the "ur" rune turned on its side.
When I said "similarities" I didn't mean "they're exactly the same", I ment "they have a similar shape and design" and I say that after looking over what I could find language-wise (I think i've graduated to amateur linguist because of all this searching too. :laff: ).
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Then again, the "Danish futhark" runes pictures above are quite different from the Elder futhark runes I'm familiar with, or the several other versions of futhark used around northern Europe pre-1200, because the old runes were all linear. The theory is that they chose linear forms becaue such are easier to carve than curves, and they did their writing with a knife or chisel not a pen. Since wood, bone, and stone can survive 1000 years but leather and paper doesn't in that part of the world, the theory cannot be proved or disproved with current evidence.
Good point, and very true in many regards. I did notice the difference and in-fact had been counting them all. Again, the idea was they LOOK alike, and not much else. Since Thief itself is set in a world that seems to be a mix of various historical ages (Industrial age technology; Renaissance architecture; Dark age stonework; ect.) it's not unlikely the developers just used a bunch of various rune alphabets to inspire them. It really wouldn't surprise me if they just used whatever looked like runes and dressed it up to look "Glyphy".
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The names of the runes varied too, what your source calls "thorn" mine call "thinguz" even though they're both the "th" sound and the third letter of the alphabet (hence the name "futhark" for the first 5 letters).
Right, I noticed that too. That's why I wasn't saying they're phonetically alike, just drawn and designed in a VERY similar fashion. Not exact, but probably as genuinely and effortlessly close as one could get. I actually came across a simple chart of various Futhorc runes a few days ago that showed how they can be rotated and aligned differently:
(
http://www.alphabetandletter.com/runic.html) http://www.alphabetandletter.com/runic.html
(I'd include the picture instead, but I think it goes over the 800X600 post limit. Plenty of other interesting charts there too)
Which really just kinda convinced me even more that it's a likely candidate for an inspirational source.
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My theory is the game designers made up a written language that looked interesting. Not every fiction writer is a linguist with no deadlines to meet, as Tolkien was. And even he borrowed a lot from Norse myths.
Yes, that's what I believe too. I didn't honestly think someone sat for hours to create a complex language that would never be translated in the game, just that when they were trying to create the Keeper Glyphs they probably had an inspiration; something to give them a "cool idea" for mystical runes. That -- to me -- so far seems most likely to be Futhorc or something related to it closely. Maybe there's something I missed (There are ALOT of ancient languages) and it's possible I could be totally wrong too, but as far as trying to come up with your own personal translation (or perhaps even the closest thing to a communal translation) Futhorc seems to be the best bet.
That is what I think is the closest anyone could get to having ANY kind of "translation" for the Glyphs.
Mortal Monkey on 26/1/2007 at 02:56
So let me get this straight after skimming your book post: You don't really want to find out or even invent a meaning for the "keeper" glyphs. What are you doing in this thread, then? Sure, the title was a bit misleading (not that Futhark is a new alphabet by any definition), but you did state that you read the first post.
TafferMonkeys! on 28/1/2007 at 08:54
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So let me get this straight after skimming your book post
I'm VERY thorough. :cheeky:
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You don't really want to find out or even invent a meaning for the "keeper" glyphs. What are you doing in this thread, then?
Actually, I have in-fact been toying with attempts to roughly translate some of the Keeper Glyphs since I saw this post and remembered the Futhorc runes as close to the Glyphs. I was working on the "Glyph of Unbinding" using Futhorc and some of the "meanings" of those runes I found as well as a potential counterpart to the Glyph for the most part, trying to find relations and making (what I like to believe) was a bit of progress. I even considered to potential for a "Lesser Lexicon" (The simple Glyphs you see in gameplay) and a "Greater Lexicon" (Some of the more heavily-detailed Glyphs). Unfortunately, my plate is too full lately to spend enough time to make a decent translation of the Glyphs. Despite what my mini-novels might imply, I DO have a life outside these boards. :laff:
Despite my own busy life, I mostly posted all this in an attempt to both provide some assistance to fourthrebirth -- if they ment to attempt to create a language -- or anyone else wanting to make the attempt, and present my own theories on the subject (for anyone actually interested). I thought perhaps it would be some major help or at least some food for thought to anyone putting in the long and difficult effort. Sometimes it's good to philosophically bump heads to get a clearer perspective on a project at hand.
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Sure, the title was a bit misleading (not that Futhark is a new alphabet by any definition), but you did state that you read the first post.
Read it; slightly quoted it; refered to it constantly when not refering to something else. Honestly, i'm not too sure what you've been getting at. It seems like you're commenting on things i've already said. I'm pretty sure i've been answering your questions before you even ask them, really. I'm sorry if you're missing my point. :)
Anyway, ultimately the point is if anyone is going to put the time and effort into trying to translate the Glyphs (Which, unfortunately, I myself do not have the time for right now) they have alot of work ahead of them and should look into all options before taking anything as gospel. I think you, I, and everyone else here have presented some very useful points of view and various opinions -- opposing or otherwise -- to help that get started. :thumb:
dlw6 on 28/1/2007 at 13:09
Well, okay. Consider, then, bindrunes -- one character assembled from two or three runes, written as one conjoined bindrune and intended to combine its component runes in sound or meaning. A modern example of a bindrune is the logo for Bluetooth technology. There are period references to bindrunes but they aren't often seen. And considering we're limited to mostly linear forms, binding runes has the potential to obscure their meaning. If you think of runes as the information technology of their time and place, bindrunes were a sort of compression and encryption.
Where else do we see something like this? The Hangul (Korean) language uses Chinese characters as its basis, where each character in Hangul is composed of multiple symbols, each representing a unique sound. The assembled character creates a phonetic syllable of its component sounds, making it very easy to sound out the words once you know the alphabet (which I'm still learning).
So maybe the glyphs are, or could be designed as, bindrunes. For what it's worth.
Don
imperialreign on 28/1/2007 at 19:08
IMO - I seriously doubt that at the time of the original development of Thief, that any of the artists had the time necessary to write an entire written symbolic system for use in the game.
But, that's not to say that certain meaning was never attached to the symbols themselves. From my years studying the occult, in various beliefs, symbols are a part of the whole human 'psyche' that has been slowly developing over coutnless millenia since the birth of mankind itself. It's to say that the older a symbol is, the stronger it's meaning is meant to be, and that it is universal, in that even if someone doesn't "know" the symbol, their inner self does. Probably why there are so many similarities and differences between the various Futhark systems, even from tribes that had no interaction or relation.
Not to say that the designers didn't take inspiration from these various symbol systems, though. But, I think, that the keeper glyphs more closely resemble alchemal symbols, than anything else:
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http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~panopus/handbook/symbols4.jpgInline Image:
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~panopus/handbook/symbols3.jpgand probably also some inspirtation from astrological symbols:
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http://encyclopedia.quickseek.com/images/thumb/180px-Astrological_Glyphs.jpgand also from the Elder Futhark:
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http://www.paganlink.org/library/fonts/previews/dtf-futhark-gothic.gifit's quite possible they also found inspiration in various occult alphabets:
enochian:
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http://z.about.com/d/paganwiccan/1/0/m/4/enochian.gifcelestial writing:
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http://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/5462/2h/www.digitalriver.com/v2.0-img/operations/Deniart/image/c/e/l/celestialw.giftheban:
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http://z.about.com/d/paganwiccan/1/0/1/theban.gifmalachim:
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http://www.esotericarchives.com/agrippa/malachim.gif
