TafferMonkeys! on 31/1/2007 at 01:34
dlw6:
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Well, okay. Consider, then, bindrunes -- one character assembled from two or three runes, written as one conjoined bindrune and intended to combine its component runes in sound or meaning.
Actually, assuming I read you right, that's pretty much exactly what I was doing when I was trying to decipher the Glyph of Unbinding myself.
If anyone's interested, so far my CURRENT theory
was that the "Glyph of Unbinding" (using the Futhorc Rune alphabet alone) is a combination of "Othila"; "Algiz"; and "Kenaz" runes, which would (roughly) create a combination of "Safety"; "Protection"; and "Guiding". Roughly translated, it's like saying "This Glyph will
Guide you past the
Safety of a
Protection(Binding) Glyph".
Anyway, that's what I came to in a short period of time of messing around with them. :cheeky:
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A modern example of a bindrune is the logo for Bluetooth technology. There are period references to bindrunes but they aren't often seen. And considering we're limited to mostly linear forms, binding runes has the potential to obscure their meaning. If you think of runes as the information technology of their time and place, bindrunes were a sort of compression and encryption.....
....So maybe the glyphs are, or could be designed as, bindrunes. For what it's worth.
I agree, totally. After all, when you consider
The Hag in T3 was an ancient kind of evil (I think) and she had a natural control over the Glyphs, it's only reasonable to assume before the Keepers used them (and maybe before they were even founded) that the Glyphs were used as magic incantations and bindrunes. If I were to venture a guess, i'd definately agree with you and say the Glyphs are -- both mystically and linguistically -- likely a combination of runes (from various sources and alphabets no less). :thumb:
imperialreign:
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IMO - I seriously doubt that at the time of the original development of Thief, that any of the artists had the time necessary to write an entire written symbolic system for use in the game.
*Nod*
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But, that's not to say that certain meaning was never attached to the symbols themselves. From my years studying the occult, in various beliefs, symbols are a part of the whole human 'psyche' that has been slowly developing over coutnless millenia since the birth of mankind itself. It's to say that the older a symbol is, the stronger it's meaning is meant to be, and that it is universal, in that even if someone doesn't "know" the symbol, their inner self does. Probably why there are so many similarities and differences between the various Futhark systems, even from tribes that had no interaction or relation.
That never crossed my mind since I started playing around with the idea, and I think you're very likely right. If the Keeper Glyphs (which, technically, are not really the
KEEPER's Glyphs it would seem) are actually ancient enough -- and, perhaps, even MORE ancient than the writing of the Lost City -- then it's VERY possible that translating the Glyphs (even if they don't have a real, official translation) could be alot easier than originally suspected. So, perhaps the best idea is to start with the oldest runes and languages and work our way up? I started with the entire Futhorc alphabet, but looking at what's recently been show in this thread i'm beginning to think a proper (fan-based) translation of the Glyphs will require a combination two or three lexicons, each using a base of different rune and language combinations, some taking perhaps trace elements of a lesser/greater lexicon before/after it. Definately some food for thought here. :cheeky:
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Not to say that the designers didn't take inspiration from these various symbol systems, though. But, I think, that the keeper glyphs more closely resemble alchemal symbols, than anything else:....
....So, the original designers may never have intended any meaning, that's not to say that meaning wasn't attached to their glyphs. Who knows, really, y'know?
......Y'know, imperialreign......I think I owe you a BIG thank you. I stated awhile back that I went over most of the ancient languages I could and didn't find many closer connections than Futhorc -- but now it seems I stand corrected. I was so busy looking for pictures of genuine tables with the actual writing that if i'd taken a minute to look at charts like you provided i'd have realized I missed the obvious. Clearly, I stand corrected on some of what I said -- so yeah,
BIG thanks. :thumb:
I still feel pretty strongly to the Futhorc alphabets as the best "base" to build from, but looking over (and keeping a few copies:sly:) of the charts you provided I definately think I missed some reasonable alphabets. Honestly, I don't even think I remembered to look into the "Alchemic" and other similar alphabets. :sweat: I can already seem some Glyph connections in a few of the provided alphabets.
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So, hope this aids any further study and research.
Oh, yes; VERY much. Actually, i'm just wondering -- does anyone think it's too soon to recommend this thread perhaps become a Sticky? I don't know of any other threads so far that are as detailed or serious on the subject of Glyph translation as this one. Just wondering.
I'm
definately beginning to like how this is coming along. :cheeky:
imperialreign on 31/1/2007 at 06:40
I think your best bet would definitely be to start with ancient alchemy symbols; and not so much as to their direct word representations or translations, but with the intended meaning or concept behind the symbol itself. Seeing as how the ancient art of alchemy itself was always shrouded in mystery, and many of it's beliefs and practices were kept very secret (so much so that ancient manuscripts don't actually have any valuable text, the information itself was passed by the means of art and pictures, with many complex symbols that only other trained individuals could interpret), you might have a hard time running across decent information. Best of luck, though. But, take for instance the symbol for mercury:
Inline Image:
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/media/alchemy/Hg.gifthe meaning behind the symbol itself is to represent equal halves, both male and female, good and evil; it also represents change, or the beginning of a new process or a new beginning, it can also mean the end of a significant ordeal; also, all the qualities of the ancient god Mercury can also be attributed to this symbol, and as the metal mercury itself is poisonous, the symbols can also represent danger. There's more and more behind this symbol, too; it's just a scratch on the surface.
Here are a few links with a more comprehensive listing of various alchemy symbols and their direct translation:
(
http://www.alchemywebsite.com/alchemical_symbols00.html) http://www.alchemywebsite.com/alchemical_symbols00.html
(
http://www.alchemylab.com/dictionary.htm) http://www.alchemylab.com/dictionary.htm
(
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/41a/index.html) http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/41a/index.html
(
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/41b/index.html) http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/41b/index.html
further reading into various religious beliefs:
(
http://sacred-texts.com/alc/index.htm) http://sacred-texts.com/alc/index.htm
also study and look into the ancient qabbalah, as alchemy is very much intertwined with this ancient system, also
fourthrebirth on 2/2/2007 at 15:26
It seems there are a lot of similarities with the futhork and the alchemic systems. Would be nice to have a word from the designers on the subject wouldn't it?
TafferMonkeys! on 8/2/2007 at 05:14
imperialreign:
Thanks much for the links. I've got them saved in a collective file i've kept on this subject. I don't suppose you've come up with any theoretical Glyph translations yourself so far? :)
For that matter, I wonder; is anyone else working on this as well? I personally think it would be pretty interesting to see several personal translations of the Glyphs from different sources. The more we have, the more potential we have to come to a collective agreement on what works best. :cheeky:
fourthrebirth:
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It seems there are a lot of similarities with the futhork and the alchemic systems. Would be nice to have a word from the designers on the subject wouldn't it?
VERY. Since we've occasionally heard from them on the forums before, I wonder if maybe there's some mention of it Waaaay back in the post history. At the very least it would be pretty awesome if one of the designers (maybe even one reading this right now.:cheeky:) could give us their impression on what was going through the "Glyph creator(s)" head(s) at the time. ANYTHING official would be helpful in taking a step in the right direction.
Jusal:
Thanks for adding that pic. :thumb:
imperialreign on 8/2/2007 at 05:48
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Thanks much for the links. I've got them saved in a collective file i've kept on this subject. I don't suppose you've come up with any theoretical Glyph translations yourself so far?
Actually, I haven't much thought about it; but this same question has popped into my head a couple of times over the last few years. Perhaps this weekend if I have a little spare time I'll start going through some of them. From that last cutscene pic that was posted, I defi see some that (actually, a ton . . .) that could be near mirror images of other symbols . . . I'll try to make some time this weekend; it might be interesting . . .
although, if you really want to get into pronunciations and variations of the runic systems, delve here: (
http://www.arild-hauge.com/eindex.htm) http://www.arild-hauge.com/eindex.htm
demagogue on 27/6/2008 at 21:39
After looking at the glyphs again from the recent 'glyph tattoo' thread, I noticed that a number of them are straight-out Chinese (& Japanese) characters (kanji), and others are very close variations. A lot, too, are reminiscent of their (
http://www.kanjinetworks.com/reference.html) archaic versions, e.g., "shell & bone" characters, the "rune" versions of kanji before they became words ... (which, by the way, also ties into the old (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1275491#post1275491) argument that the glyphs aren't word-like like kanji are, but runic in nature ... so were most kanji originally.)
I mean, it could just be me, but archaic Chinese glyphs are very Thief looking IMO:
Inline Image:
http://i28.tinypic.com/29lkdas.jpgSo I thought it would be good to list ones I recognized (a forum search didn't turn up any other list) as a resource for everybody, but that list definitely needs to be ITT rather than the thread that led me to notice it.
BTW, A basic source is (
http://www.kanjinetworks.com/) this site, which covers modern characters and their archaic origins. Also, I make no claims that the kanji were literally direct inspiration for any glyphs (although for some of them, e.g., some in the "definite" list, you'd think they'd have to be ... for others, in both lists, it looks more like coincidence). I'm just pointing out connections where I see them, as a resource.
Below are one's I've caught so far, numbers according to the list - (
http://thief.nov.ru/glyphs.htm)
(I'll try to edit in more if I catch any. You should be able to see the characters with Unicode UTF-8 encoding)
Definite - 03: rain 雨
28: future 末
29: earth 土
42: fire 火
55: hand 扌 (in its radical form)
64: archaic version of "tree"
Inline Image:
http://i31.tinypic.com/2utq2v9.jpg106: power 力
107: book 本
109: tree 木
Close calls - 09: almost "gold" 金
10: close to a version of "nothing" 無
27: almost "father" 父
30: one possible variation of archaic "mountain" 山
33: close to variation of "flagpole" 杠
41: strikingly similar to archaic for for "shoot" or "let fly", also derived from a bow
Inline Image:
http://i26.tinypic.com/2vd2q2h.jpg50: close to hole 凵
51: could pass for sun 日
59: very close to archaic "what" 何
60: almost "inside" 内
66: passable as "mountain" 山
80: "cart" on its side 車
84: two diamonds top/bottom is archaic for "thread" (or small)
Inline Image:
http://i29.tinypic.com/2upg3eb.jpg, two dashes on either side make it "ratio"
Inline Image:
http://i31.tinypic.com/2lkpidd.jpg (the dashes are now written V style, just like the glyph)
97: close to cursive "middle" 中, also almost "inside" like 60 内
104: similar to "tree"
108: 2 x's side-by-side is archaic for "friend"
Not similar, but noteworthy things - 15: has the katakana letter for "se" in it サ
22: has the hiragana letter for "sa" in it さ (looks more like it in another form)
89: there is an archaic character of an eyebrow over an eye, but the enclosure around the #89 glyph is really a different kind of special enclosure.
90: not too different from the archaic pictogram for "mature male" (husband) ...
90a: In rune/glyph terms, flipping a character upside down reverses the #90 meaning/potency (so if it was "lock" in the game, then 90a would = "unlock"). Coincidentally, though, it does look a lot like the archaic "child", which sounds like the reverse of adult male, but it's for different reasons than the 'reverse'... just a coincidence. BTW, it's the second glyph in the picture at the top.
101: has a distinct look of "dragon" (coiled serpent) in it. It's the first glyph in the picture at the top.
103: is the katakana letter "ki" turned around キ
- It's not on the glyph chart, but the third partial character on the right page of (
http://thief.nov.ru/Glyps/screens/many.jpg) this looks an awful lot like "mother" 母
Other things I noticed, not sure if they're in this thread or not:
- It's worth pointing out that archaic kanji obey certain runic rules, such as the fact that flipping a character upside-down reverses its meaning/potency (cf glyphs #90 & 90a)
- Should probably cross-ref this thread to (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=640260#post640260) this old one which I found in a forum search, where our 2002 selves debated what TDP glyphs meant ... one suggestion is similarities to hobo glyphs in the last post.
116: minus the dots is the simplified Egyptian heiroglyph for the bull's head, alef, which went on to become Arabic/Hebrew aleph, phonecian/greek alpha, and finally the Roman a/A.
The Magpie on 28/6/2008 at 11:57
Wohoo! :eek: Amazing research work, demagogue! Much appreciated! :thumb:
--
Larris
MorningDove on 4/3/2011 at 18:30
I just got done reading a book that talks about this very subject of language and writing and where is all stems from. This is a really interesting subject that has always fascinated me. The book I read is called (the primordial language by author Anita Meyer). It directly links the Hebrew writing as being the first of its kind. The book shows the relationship between all written writing from around the world and links all the similarity to the Hebrew letters. Linguist say that the Sumerian writing is the oldest, but this book shows with illustrated pictures how the Sumerian writing (which is cuneiform) is nothing other than the Hebrew letters viewed sideways. Its extremely really interesting to me when the author makes the connection that this is actually the writing and language of creation!
Anyhow just thought you guys would be interested in this. You can try to Google it to learn more about it if your interested. Otherwise this is the only link I can find on it.
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http://www.insearchoftheuniversaltruthpublisher.com/files/Pictures_and_explanation.pdf)
