NEW PODCAST - BLACK PARADE f. Fire Mage & Skacky - by Supremcee
Supremcee on 13/4/2022 at 18:06
[video=youtube_share;2sTQPuQhC_Q]https://youtu.be/2sTQPuQhC_Q[/video]
downwinder on 13/4/2022 at 19:43
the rooftop part of mission was amazing but did not like the final building part,except for the gold child that was the only thing that made the ending worth it
Kubrick on 15/4/2022 at 00:29
I knew after I finished Thief 2 that it was my favourite mission. Replaying it now after so many FMs it's influence is clear, since I can't think of another *single* mission that alone influenced a genere of missions (except for the second city bank and trust, but bank missions are mostly a thematic heist type if you ask me).
Regarding LotP, it's really telling that we (or is it just me?) mostly remember the rooftop section, and at least in my mind Angelwatch always feels like the following mission, instead of the second part of the same. They're not even separated by a loading screen!
The architecture feels dated after spoiling myself with so many FMs, but what part of the originals don't: not complaining.
Because of all the following, it strikes me that Life of the Party is a big milestone in the Thief series. Some hot takes I noted down while replaying:
1) The idea of the "thief's highway", the power fantasy of it, is even stronger than whatever the polygons of the level itself could conjure up: it allows itself to be dreamed up to today, and so it's very clear how the dream spread through the FMs that followed it footsteps. And sometimes they are not only about the dream but specific ideas. In Feast of Pilgrims, for example, you can see a mage tower, a banner that serves as a tightrope, and a greenhouse, and it was all here in the original.
2) The idea of infiltrating into random houses is suprisingly... not really executed. You visit one or two derelict places, and many of the houses you break into you only visit hallways or attics for you to avoid a guard while you use it as a shorcut. In this sense, Feast of Pilgrims, the obvious crowning achievement and successor of the dream that LotP produced, goes full on board regarding this: it's all about going, let's say, from rooftop to bedroom, which is also what I picture in my mind when I feel like playing a thief highway style mission. LotP, instead, treats the thief's highway almost as a literal high speed highway funneling you towards a latter objective, which is almost dissapointing but only in retrospective; I don't think it truly detracts from the level just because the seed it planted outgrew the level that originally birthed it. It's funny there isn't much heist in the mission that spawned my personal favourite heisting genre of FMs.
3) Another thing that surprised me going back was not only it's linearity but how much it detracts when you are not being linear. For the south section, you really are just better following the most obvious path through the rooftops. In this playthrough, I found or rediscovered the attic of the astronomer (the one who comically failed to send his apprentice to another planet, where you find the sunburn device), very early, by climbing atop a beam, and it really threw me off a loop. It served as a shortcut, but I really had to go back "in reverse" through the rooftops so as to not skip a big portion of the early level. I saw the famous conversation between the four guards from the other side, and only because I knew it was there and wanted to hear it again. I had missed it if it had been my first time. This all connects to the previous point of you not really breaking into houses to rob them. The shorcuts feel either pointless or like they make you miss big chunks. The cistern I can't truly see why it exists, and the chimney that connects to Shemanov Estate leads you to the "front" (looking north) of the bank section I'll detail next.
4) Also connected to the previous points of linearity and shorcuts, the rooftop part of the mission splits momentarily into what feel like two paths: the baron's way and the bank. But the first one ultimately leads to an armory so the linearity is preserved: a macro example of the classic thief exploration of having two doors, one leads further down the hall and the other is a closet with gold hidden in an alcove. Rewards for exploration. I did not had the key so I blasted it open with the sunburn device, after reading that method in a 22 year old thread about it on this forum. How cool is that?
This all makes me think about how incredibly insecure Looking Glass seems to have been all through the development of both Thiefs. We all know the story of the zombies and the dungeon levels of the first one because they were unsure people would like the other parts of the game. Here we can see something similar. The mission really is about you traversing almost not stopping towards another closed off keep or building (in this case Angelwatch), but.. almost accidentaly? they produced the dream that ultimatly created the Thief's Highway missions as a genre. It really encapsulates the magic alchemy that percolated into what the games are, beyond expectations or control by the devs sometimes. Now I really wanna read a dev's diary about this mission specifically. Anyone know of anything?
I regard LotP, and who wouldn't really, as one of the high points of the series. Life of the Party is a microcosmos of what Thief is all about, the potentials the originals had, and the strenghts of the originals that ultimately spawned the community through it's most potent influences, with the details and dreams that the Thief universe fractaly produces. Because it really is all here in this mission, even when the mission is not doing it! If we don't heist houses, like I said earlier, is this mission that produced that desire of "rooftop to bedroom". So the community picked up on it as so we get to stuff like Feast of Pilgrims. Astounding stuff really. I'll post later about Angelwatch, but the meat of this level is here bois.
A point I didn't touch upon because I haven't replayed 2 in (metal) ages (lol), but that I'd really like to hear about in the pod, is about how it fits withing the larger ludonarrative of the previous and following levels. I remember you guys talking about that on previous episodes about OMs.
edit:
Replayed Angelwatch. It's nice but really I don't have anything to say about it. It's just a classic Thief building.
Supremcee on 15/4/2022 at 21:06
Quote Posted by Kubrick
I knew after I finished Thief 2 that it was my favourite mission. Replaying it now after so many FMs it's influence is clear, since I can't think of another *single* mission that alone influenced a genere of missions (except for the second city bank and trust, but bank missions are mostly a thematic heist type if you ask me).
Regarding LotP, it's really telling that we (or is it just me?) mostly remember the rooftop section, and at least in my mind Angelwatch always feels like the following mission, instead of the second part of the same. They're not even separated by a loading screen!
The architecture feels dated after spoiling myself with so many FMs, but what part of the originals don't: not complaining.
Because of all the following, it strikes me that Life of the Party is a big milestone in the Thief series. Some hot takes I noted down while replaying:
1)
The idea of the "thief's highway", the
power fantasy of it, is even stronger than whatever the polygons of the level itself could conjure up:
it allows itself to be dreamed up to today, and so it's very clear how the dream spread through the FMs that followed it footsteps. And sometimes they are not only about the dream but specific ideas. In Feast of Pilgrims, for example, you can see a mage tower, a banner that serves as a tightrope, and a greenhouse, and it was all here in the original.
2) The idea of infiltrating into random houses is suprisingly... not really executed. You visit one or two derelict places, and many of the houses you break into you only visit hallways or attics for you to avoid a guard while you use it as a shorcut. In this sense, Feast of Pilgrims, the obvious crowning achievement and successor of the dream that LotP produced, goes full on board regarding this: it's all about going, let's say, from rooftop to bedroom, which is also what I picture in my mind when I feel like playing a thief highway style mission.
LotP, instead, treats the thief's highway almost as a literal high speed highway funneling you towards a latter objective, which is almost dissapointing but only in retrospective; I don't think it truly detracts from the level just because
the seed it planted outgrew the level that originally birthed it. It's funny there isn't much heist in the mission that spawned my personal favourite heisting genre of FMs.
3) Another thing that surprised me going back was not only it's
linearity but how much it detracts when you are not being linear. For the south section, you really are just better following the most obvious path through the rooftops. In this playthrough, I found or rediscovered the attic of the astronomer (the one who comically failed to send his apprentice to another planet, where you find the sunburn device), very early, by climbing atop a beam, and it really threw me off a loop. It served as a shortcut, but I really had to go back "in reverse" through the rooftops so as to not skip a big portion of the early level. I saw the famous conversation between the four guards from the other side, and only because I knew it was there and wanted to hear it again. I had missed it if it had been my first time. This all connects to the previous point of you not really breaking into houses to rob them. The shorcuts feel either pointless or like they make you miss big chunks. The cistern I can't truly see why it exists, and the chimney that connects to Shemanov Estate leads you to the "front" (looking north) of the bank section I'll detail next.
4) Also connected to the previous points of linearity and shorcuts, the rooftop part of the mission splits momentarily into what feel like two paths: the baron's way and the bank. But the first one ultimately leads to an armory so the linearity is preserved: a macro example of the classic thief exploration of having two doors, one leads further down the hall and the other is a closet with gold hidden in an alcove. Rewards for exploration. I did not had the key so I blasted it open with the sunburn device, after reading that method in a 22 year old thread about it on this forum. How cool is that?
This all makes me think about how
incredibly insecure Looking Glass seems to have been all through the development of both Thiefs. We all know the story of the zombies and the dungeon levels of the first one because they were unsure people would like the other parts of the game. Here we can see something similar.
The mission really is about you traversing almost not stopping towards another closed off keep or building (in this case Angelwatch),
but.. almost accidentaly? they produced the dream that ultimatly created the Thief's Highway missions as a genre. It really encapsulates the magic alchemy that percolated into what the games are, beyond expectations or control by the devs sometimes. Now I really wanna read a dev's diary about this mission specifically. Anyone know of anything?
I regard LotP, and who wouldn't really, as one of the high points of the series.
Life of the Party is a microcosmos of what Thief is all about, the potentials the originals had, and the strenghts of the originals that ultimately spawned the community through it's most potent influences, with the details and dreams that the Thief universe fractaly produces. Because it really is all here in this mission, even when the mission is not doing it! If we don't heist houses, like I said earlier, is this mission that produced that desire of "rooftop to bedroom". So the community picked up on it as so we get to stuff like Feast of Pilgrims. Astounding stuff really. I'll post later about Angelwatch, but the meat of this level is here bois.
A point I didn't touch upon because I haven't replayed 2 in (metal) ages (lol), but that I'd really like to hear about in the pod, is about
how it fits withing the larger ludonarrative of the previous and following levels. I remember you guys talking about that on previous episodes about OMs.
edit:
Replayed Angelwatch. It's nice but really I don't have anything to say about it. It's just a classic Thief building.
Thank you for that huge opinion, but guys please keep in mind that we have to read out your comments - so we will have to cut out alot and it is also some work to filter the essentials - don't know at the moment how we will implement your opinion but I'll try my best to keep it focused without losing your points - because you have very interesting and valid points - its a shame not to read that out fully but for the podcast format thats not working
downwinder on 15/4/2022 at 21:18
something else i wanted to add in first part of mission i loved how it had tiny bits of all types of people from city from the rich to mages to downwinders to zombies to keepers/etc it was a great way to add a lot to lore for one mission
i want to say pretty much every type of npc/faction/character type was shown in that first part of mission,amazing job to looking glass for that,makes me wonder if they ever did make a thief 2 gold would they have gone back to mission to fill them out and make them better? or just add 3 more new missions and call it a day
Kubrick on 15/4/2022 at 22:34
Quote Posted by Supremcee
Thank you for that huge opinion, but guys please keep in mind that we have to read out your comments - so we will have to cut out alot and it is also some work to filter the essentials - don't know at the moment how we will implement your opinion but I'll try my best to keep it focused without losing your points - because you have very interesting and valid points - its a shame not to read that out fully but for the podcast format thats not working
Oooh I did not remember that you read them outloud. Obviously not suited for that, but I bolded my most important points. The whole comment spins around one or two ideas about the mission anyway. Mostly that Angelwatch is absolutely minor compared to the first part, and that the first part surprisingly treats the thief's highway as almost a literal highway towards your latter objective, which was surprising when I revisited it for the pod because it spawned the FM genre without really doing what the genre usually does, which I dubbed "from rooftop to bedroom". That made me think about how LG so many times (like with the zombies and dungeons on the first one) did not really know what they had in their hand. "Despite" LG, the mission still provides the dream and/or power fantasy of you robbing people by coming through the rooftops, which is what the FM genre is all about IMO, without you really doing it in the original.
edit: also I'd like to hear you guys opinion on how it fits withing the larger Thief 2, considering previous and following missions.
<Username> on 16/4/2022 at 04:49
Great post, Kubrick! That is an insightful analysis of the thieves' highway in LotP.
Galaer on 16/4/2022 at 09:11
I initially was very positive about Life of the Party. This inspired people to make rooftop missions and unfortunately that's the reason why I don't like that much rooftop part of LotP. These rooftop missions has really been overdone. Still it's good to have some platforming, which was absent in Thief 2. I really like platforming in Thief. Map on the other hand is the worst out of every other Thief 2 missions. It's very vague similarly to Thief 1 maps. Whenever I play this mission I get lost a lot. "I went north into building, so why am I ending at the south?". Other than platforming and navigating problems there is really no challenge in city part of LotP. This is presented in Angelwatch in form of Mechanist patrollers, bots and alarm. That's why the highlight of this mission for me was always Angelwatch. Plus despite vague map, floors are easy to navigate. Voice conversations aren't that interesting for me. Everyone highlight conversation between archers of Lady Van Vernon, but to be honest hearing one guy with voice mutation shouting at others sounds actually annoying. Not long time ago I played FM based on LotP with this conversation in german. OMG, what an improvement. Really wish to have ability to play both games with german voices as they sound really good.
I have no idea if you have in plans to cover demo missions, which was base for LotP, but I'm gonna say that city part there is designed in more interesting way than LotP. There is couple more rooftops and 2 paths to Angelwatch and also Angelwatch's roof can be visited. I think that's a really good easter egg even though I never visited it by myself.
<Username> on 16/4/2022 at 11:30
Quote Posted by Galaer
Everyone highlight conversation between archers of Lady Van Vernon, but to be honest hearing one guy with voice mutation shouting at others sounds actually annoying. Not long time ago I played FM based on LotP with this conversation in german. OMG, what an improvement.
A while back there was a thread about differences between the English and German voice acting in Thief games. In that thread, the archers in LotP were also a point of discussion. The English voice acting of the archer sequence sounds like a Monty Python skit, whereas the hostility between the archers in the German version sounds more believable.
In an additional difference between the two versions of LotP, Stephen Russell's Karras sounds like Droopy Dog, whereas the German voice actor drops the speech impediment entirely and instead emphasizes in his voice Karras' arrogance and lingering hatred for humanity.
Snake on 16/4/2022 at 12:35
I think LotP is to Thief 2 what The Sword is to Thief 1 (and the Cradle is to Thief 3). They are each the standout missions of their respective campaigns and tend to be at the top of most fans’ best missions lists.
While today, sprawling city/rooftop FMs are very common (and possibly overdone), we had never seen anything quite like it before LotP. The only real glimpses we had of the City were the brief trailing section in Assassins and the underwhelming Ambush/Courier missions. Again, while many city FMs today are much larger and more intricate than LotP, at the time, it was a massive mission and provided the most extensive view of the City and the most opportunity for open exploration up to that point.
What makes LotP work so well is the level of detail put into each section, there are many areas to explore and it feels like a real life breathing city, with people and stories in every area. The sense of scale is heightened by the time you arrive at Angelwatch as you realise there’s almost another entire mission inside LotP.
The mission is not without its flaws. In hindsight, Angelwatch is a little disappointing. Partly due to the limitations of the time, there is not as much detail or areas to explore in the tower itself. The next point might be a strange criticism of the mission but it’s almost because LotP is so ambitious and executed so well, the mediocrity of everything else in Thief 2 stands out. With the exception of maybe First City Bank & Trust and Masks, nothing else in Thief 2 even comes close to LotP. It sometimes feels like the designers poured everything they had into LotP and could not replicate the same level of quality across any other mission. I think the legacy of LotP is seen today in many of the best FMs, particularly Feast of Pilgrims, and for this I think the community can be very thankful.
