New Taffer recommendations. - by BrokenArts
BrokenArts on 23/3/2022 at 16:44
Quote Posted by marbleman
Simpler? A typical mission from the original games takes about an hour or two to complete. Something like Ominous Bequest can take five or six for the first playthrough. Most FMs that are considered all-time classics are nothing like OMs and can be quite overwhelming to a new player. Don't get me wrong, I love missions like Ominous Bequest, and every Thief fan should experience them, but I would not recommend them for someone new to FMs.
Exactly, to me, that is where the problem arises. We remember the stellar, killer FM's. We sometimes forget the simpler more plain FM's, not that those are bad, there are just too many to remember. That is what a new player should play, go simple, then expand from there.
Calibrator on 23/3/2022 at 16:53
Quote Posted by BrokenArts
Leatherman wins this round so far. So much for asking a serious question. Do you honestly think I'd recommend Patriot to a new player. :tsktsk::nono: I'm trying to spread the gospel of Thief, and not dissuade someone from playing by giving them a difficult mission, they'll quit. To each his own.
I agree with LeatherMan & you but I want to highlight an - in my opinion - important part of the games series: Knowing when to use which equipment by learning what the capabilities & the limits are.
Both original games didn't offer the full range of equipment right from the start but introduce it gradually.
The first missions are especially limited in this way but are still able to immerse the player into these "new" worlds and make them scenario addicts (or not - but then FMs won't help either).
The novice should know by then what to expect from the games - and also from the FMs because most of them stick to the formula.
Of course the complexity of the OMs ramps up pretty quickly after the first few missions but then the new players will hone their skills -- *if* they persist.
Compared to, for example, the Dishonored games there also isn't a true brute force option, especially on higher levels (or most expert levels in FMs) where you simply can't go on a murder spree.
So it's either you don't mind stealthing or you don't play at all and a FM with more eye candy won't change that.
Therefore I see the original games as "required basic training" to bring the player into shape to actually be able to enjoy FMs.
And this not only includes the game mechanics but also the lore which gets referenced often in FMs.
But if the novice players persisted and liked the OMs enough to be curious about FMs they should be pointed this way and lots of positive surprises will be waiting for them.
I for example just completed the utterly brilliant mission "Iris" for the Dark Mod and just can't see a total novice actually being able to chew through that one...
Just my 2c.
marbleman on 23/3/2022 at 16:54
One day I will make a flowchart with FM recommendations, starting with FMs that feel pretty much like OMs and then shifting towards more unique experiences. For example, once you've played a few FMs, I'd recommend something like Endless Rain, which is considerably large. Is the player okay with a mission of this size? I'd recommend Disorientation and the Sound of a Burrick next. If not, I'd stick to smaller, more OM-sized missions. Similarly, I'd recommend something like Keyhunt to get into puzzle-heavy missions. Did the player like solving these? They can try Gathering at the Inn next, which is also puzzle-heavy but combines puzzle-solving with classic Thief gameplay. And only after that, something like Ominous Bequest, which is also pretty much a puzzle mission but on a much larger scale. It's not ideal because everyone has their own preferences, but it should be an interesting exercise.
BrokenArts on 23/3/2022 at 17:11
Quote Posted by marbleman
One day I will make a flowchart with FM recommendations, starting with FMs that feel pretty much like OMs and then shifting towards more unique experiences. For example, once you've played a few FMs, I'd recommend something like Endless Rain, which is considerably large. Is the player okay with a mission of this size? I'd recommend Disorientation and the Sound of a Burrick next. If not, I'd stick to smaller, more OM-sized missions. Similarly, I'd recommend something like Keyhunt to get into puzzle-heavy missions. Did the player like solving these? They can try Gathering at the Inn next, which is also puzzle-heavy but combines puzzle-solving with classic Thief gameplay. And only after that, something like Ominous Bequest, which is also pretty much a puzzle mission but on a much larger scale. It's not ideal because everyone has their own preferences, but it should be an interesting exercise.
That would be awesome. I know that in of itself is a daunting task. There are so many FM's now, I know lists are compiled, and being compiled for various reasons. It would be great to have one overall list, you sure you want to take that on? lol Get help if you do.
Calibrator on 23/3/2022 at 17:12
I think that is a good idea!
Quote Posted by marbleman
For example, once you've played a few FMs, I'd recommend something like Endless Rain, which is considerably large. Is the player okay with a mission of this size? I'd recommend Disorientation and the Sound of a Burrick next.
These would also be my recommended city missions as they are brilliant and complex but not too difficult. We are not talking 100% loot, aren't we? ;-)
BrokenArts on 23/3/2022 at 17:16
One of my favorite small FM's, All for a Night's Sleep. There are probably some small gems that we've long forgotten about. I thought about starting with the very first FM.....and play. :p
LeatherMan on 23/3/2022 at 17:34
Quote Posted by marbleman
Simpler? A typical mission from the original games takes about an hour or two to complete. Something like Ominous Bequest can take five or six for the first playthrough. Most FMs that are considered all-time classics are nothing like OMs and can be quite overwhelming to a new player. Don't get me wrong, I love missions like Ominous Bequest, and every Thief fan should experience them, but I would not recommend them for someone new to FMs.
I'm thinking "simpler" in terms of geometry, mission size, visuals, voice-acting, custom objects, etc. Once you've played missions heavy in visuals (eg, Rose Cottage), grand in scope (eg, Endless Rain), heavy in custom objects (eg, Raven Creek), or even part of a multi-mission campaign (eg, Patriot), it could make it harder for new players to want to play older FMs no matter how good they are overall.
And yes, Ominous Bequest may be too much for a new player, so maybe go with Calendra's Cistern/Legacy instead, but once the player is more accustomed to FMs then they should play Ominous Bequest before moving to more modern FMs (eg, The Violent End of Duncan Malveine). I'm just thinking that if players start with newer missions they'll never want to play the older missions and will miss out on a few dozen really good missions/campaigns.
Galaer on 23/3/2022 at 18:04
@LeatherMan: A lot of older missions are also rough missions. They may be too hard for beginners. For this reason I would never recommend Calendra's Legacy to new players. Mission 2 has forced ghosting and timed objective. Mission 3 has some really sensitive enemies. This may be too much for new players. For the same reason I wouldn't recommend Keeper of Prophesies - poison gimmick and timed missions can be really frustrating. I think recommended missions for new players should be on the easier side no matter if it's with custom textures or without them. I think difficulty here is the most important aspect. So I have new recommendation: Ack! There is Zombie in the Basement.
fortuni on 23/3/2022 at 18:37
Anything by Christine or maybe Darthslair. I recently replayed Escape from Hammer Hill and had a ball of a time.
Komag on 23/3/2022 at 19:16
I would recommend someone start by playing the winners (or top two or three) of all the contests, since those are small bite-sized missions.
