downwinder on 20/3/2014 at 02:48
lol at ghost supreme name
starting to sound like a taco bell menu
next will be the el loco grande ondillay areba speedy Gonzales play style
my personal style is to knock everything out/loot everything and collect everything,i am on opposite spectrum when i play thief
funny part is most all these lets player live off save states and hard saves=not a sign of a skilled player,i will be impressed when i see complete play through no cuts no saves,showing your self doing what i said above is like the furthest thing from ghost ever
maybe gamers of today are soft
but i remember back in the day it was all about no saves at all and trying to do speed runs/ghosting using time and ofcourse following rules
now when you see most all lets players its "ohh save state here" "hard save here" "ohh i am back i figured out what do do"=i went to ttlg or walkthrough page ,ofcourse most never say that but the cut in videos kinda show they did that
this is not at any one person i am just saying what i noticed on youtube
now i see why team in canada made thief 4 so easy after seeing all these watered downed lets plays,they probaly felt that was right direction and funny thing is alot of the newer thief people love the game,old times like me think its shit.
and they did not add dewdrop to thief 4,it was cursed from the start
klatremus on 20/3/2014 at 05:20
Quote Posted by Woodsie_Pagan
next will be the el loco grande ondillay areba speedy Gonzales play style
lol I have seen these types of comments so many times before. Thing is, there actually aren't more than 3-4 modes with "official" rule sets. You say it as if I made Supreme Ghost up last week. This mode was coined by Sneak and Clayman back in the early 2000s, along with the original Ghost and a few others. I started playing Supreme Ghost in 2003 and never looked back. Playing without saving like you said is called Ironman Thief. Some players like that too, but it's not for me. And you say it doesn't show a skilled Thief player... I play Supreme Ghost because in my opinion it is the
most challenging way to play the game, while still making you feel like a thief. IMHO knocking everyone out goes against what I see as being a "discreet" thief, which is what I would like to be.
But to each their own. I do appreciate your input Woodsie_Pagan. :) I also agree with you that games have gotten easier over the years. Perhaps that's why I mostly play oldies.
downwinder on 20/3/2014 at 05:52
here is a question,say i go through a mission on expert and i am able to complete said mission with no save states or hard saves and say get 100% of in game objectives
but then lets say a person does supreme ghost with a massive amount of restrictions=harder then just expert but they use save states and hard saves
who would have more skill,see my point,i am just going by what i seen on you tube over all and not pointing out anyone specific
kinda like what good is doing something super hard when 90%+ probaly more dont even know how to play the game right in the first place
it took me so many years to learn all the trick to playing and i still learn stuff every so often
i personaly think alot of these ghosting/etc runs on youtube are just as bad representation in my view on how to play thief,on ghost/etc
i tryed to do a classic lythia ghost back in the day i doubt very many can do it one one try
this comment does not count the speed runners and bonus/easter egg/glitch videos i see,i like those alot
100% of the time i watch lets plays of thief fan missions its to see where missing loot is i cant find myself
also once you learn two important tricks to thief as in leaning forward to blackjack and ring around the enemy with sword till he dies,and the classic run sideways to get better speed and jumps,then you know what you doing,i can fight 10 guards at once and not ever get hit the battle system is so wonky lol
yxlplig on 20/3/2014 at 06:13
Difficulty can usually broken down into:
(chance of the player making a mistake) x (punishment for making a mistake) = Difficulty
Supreme Ghost is kind of an unusual situation. The first value would be a a very high number, and the second value would be almost 0. To me it's kind of like creating a real-time TAS--that's a TAS with high level human gameplay, but with savestates used to get an ideal run.
Anyway, I've been enjoying your Calendra's Cistern video klatremus. After reading the write ups on your site, it's nice to finally be able to watch you do this.
downwinder on 20/3/2014 at 06:19
i guess my issue is calling it supreme ghost but then using save states and hard saves to play it,just don't make sense to me
yxlplig on 20/3/2014 at 06:26
Quote Posted by Woodsie_Pagan
i guess my issue is calling it supreme ghost but then using save states and hard saves to play it,just don't make sense to me
I think the only way you could make a more punishing rule set than Supreme Ghost+no quicksaves, is to create Daredevil Mode.
Daredevil Mode: Iron Man playstyle, plus if you die in game, one of the game developers comes to your house and murders you.
The Supreme rules just make it unrealistic.
klatremus on 20/3/2014 at 16:22
I guess I agree with you both that the most challenging mode would be without saves. Since the Supreme rules don't reference saves at all (as none of the rules do except Ironman) I don't think it's right to blame that mode for being unrealistic. The whole game is unrealistic if the presence of savegames is the determining factor. My reward when playing comes from figuring out ways to Supreme a difficult situation after many trials and errors, not from doing it without having to reload; but again, to each their own.
It would be interesting to do a contest where everyone gets a week and have to record their best Supreme run of a given mission with no saves/reloads, meaning the one who gets the lowest amount of Supreme busts coupled with the most amount of loot wins.
Tannar on 20/3/2014 at 16:56
@Woodsie_Pagan: First, I agree with you that games have become too easy these days. It's kind of interesting that many Thief FMs are actually harder than most new games. But I don't think you really understand some aspects of ghosting. Ghosting is difficult; more difficult than blackjacking everyone. And I would argue that you need to be a pretty skilled Thief player to successfully ghost a mission, especially some missions. But aside from that, the real issue is that ghosting a mission can take a long time. A lot longer than any other play style, usually. So saving often is not an indication of a less skilled player, as you suggest, but rather a safeguard against having to repeat a very long sequence over again.
And you don't always know what might fail your ghost run. It can often be things completely out of your control, such as a guard that gets stuck on terrain during a patrol. That can prevent you from getting past a certain area if you are ghosting, and that is not something you have any control over. That stuck guard is not an intended part of the mission. And it makes no difference how skilled you are. If that stuck guard is blocking the only route to proceed, you won't be able to ghost that section. Period. If you haven't been saving, then you have to play the mission over again from the beginning whereas sometimes a save and reload can free a stuck AI. But again, this has nothing to do with how skilled you are. It's just prudent insurance. If you were not ghosting, you could just blackjack that AI and move on. But if you're ghosting, you're out of luck.
As another example. Klatremus points out in his first video that there are some bugs which can occur during that mission which would make it impossible to ghost it successfully. So again, saving the game before those can occur is just to save you from having to repeat the whole thing again because of something outside your control.
Also, calling this particular play style "supreme" ghosting is more a reference to it being the most difficult of the different ghost modes (Ghost, Perfect Thief, Supreme Ghost).
yxlplig on 20/3/2014 at 22:13
Quote Posted by yxlplig
The Supreme rules just make it unrealistic.
I don't think I was very clear with this point. What I was trying to say was, is that Woodsie_Pagan's suggestion that supreme ghosting should be done without constant saves is an unrealistic expectation to have. The things that the supreme rules would have you restart over makes it too punishing to even attempt. I'd love to be proven wrong though.
I may favor Iron Man for myself because of the heightened suspense, but I love watching other people ghost. Honestly I don't think it's too important which style is more difficult, unless someone derives the most enjoyment out of increasing difficulty to the maximum.
Also, to add on to what Tannar mentioned, there are also some luck based elements in Thief that you might not even realize are there until you play Iron Man style. A good example would be the apemen in Escape. Most of those guys have randomized patrol routes. There are stationary guards in many FMs that spin to face different directions for random durations.
Another example that caught me off guard was the courier in Trace the Courier. The courier has several set stopping points, but it's completely random whether they will stop at them at all. So you have to deal with different guard patrols each time you play the mission.
To have to deal with all of that on top of what's already been mentioned, without getting ANY first alerts, I think is pretty unreasonable.
downwinder on 21/3/2014 at 03:54
unlimited save states and hard saves,should be taken into account when doing a so called supreme ghost/etc, not counting bugs or if you do count bugs keep the numbers separate from glitches and self mistakes
i think if the people who made videos with ghost/supreme/etc they should at the end of mission let people know how many loads they did weather for bugs or self mistakes,then people who try mission can at least have a goal of trying to beat it with less mistakes
who ever made the rules for supreme ghost and never though about saves/loads made a mistake in my view
i don't got no idea how many times they had to reload i feel like they taking credit for doing something hard with unlimited chances=bullshit
also i hate when people cut there videos all over the place,every time i see a cut in a video i figure they are running to ttlg to check out the walk through lol,i see it happen a lot,cause usually right after the cut they do exactly what they were suppose to but before cut they had no clue
so my final thoughts i rank supreme ghost about as high as i do for taco bell being good Mexican food
also i wanted to say again what i am saying is in general and i am not pointing out anyone here at all,i am just stating what i seen over all on youtube
i love ttlg and the people a lot,i just feel as a hardcore thief fan mission player,someone needs to stand up to this watered down content people are claiming is so hard,while they rack up more save states then "i wanna be that guy"=a bit over exaggerated but you get my point
i personally play expert mode myself
one last thing ,here is a situation i will give and you all tell me what you view is on it,,if a person is supreme ghosting and say they miss a jump,and say they had to save/load state 5-10 times to get the jump right,, would you concider that person a supreme ghost ?
and if a person completed a mission on supreme ghost and used say 100 load states,do you think say if you did it with no saved,ofocurse figuring both you and the person had no game gliches,that the results mean you both did it?
