No-Kill Objectives.. yay or nay? - by pukey brunster
Taylor on 31/5/2019 at 11:04
Personally, I prefer a "blackjack everything what moves" playstyle, unless I'm willingly ghosting which is uncommon.
I only kill stuff which are not covered by this objective and cannot be knocked out, though (sorry haunts) :ebil: - also sometimes when I get really mad, I whack someone with my sword or create a mayhem straightaway, but I reload a game if I commit such a thing :tsktsk:
Thus no kill objectives don't bother me too much.
Sometimes I also spare spiders if they can be sneaked past, because I love them (and gas arrows are too rare and have better uses)
Anyways if there's no no-kill objective, any named character who can be killed this way could not reappear 100% legit imo.
On the other hand, if we are talking about Garrett's personality, he most likely has a strict no-kill policy. Canonically the only time he killed a human (other than by directly saving the world by doing so) was poor Lotus, but we can't blame Garrett doing that.
Gamewise, the only opportunity to kill people legitly (lack of no-kill) appears in the Thief Gold version of Lost City, despite the fact that it's swarmed by mages. Soulforge has no restrictions either, but I don't consider masked mech things too much of a human.
Of course there are some cheesy ways circumventing the no-kill objective:
frogbeast eggs;
hammers - according to my opinion, they are one of the most powerful weapons in the game; thrown at standing enemy won't alert it and killing does not fail the objective; thrown onto an unconscious body fails the objective though
mines(?) *at least in Patriot mission "Enemy" I blew up a nobleman with a mine out of fun and the objective didn't fail, but also it could've been due to a different objective mechanic
And probably a few others I don't know.
Tannar on 4/6/2019 at 02:26
My sense of things is pretty much in keeping with most of the folks who replied already. I generally don't kill anyway, so for me the objective is superfluous, and while I hadn't thought of it in these terms until Fen mentioned it, I think I too tend to view it as more a tradition than a relevant objective these days. Also, while I have no evidence to support this, I suspect that is true for most Thief players. Thief has always been about stealth and immersing oneself in the role of Garrett, the master thief. And our beloved hero, while not above killing if the fate of the world is at stake, is simply not a killer. I suppose it might be in his character to kill for revenge, but I can't see him killing for hire, or just convenience.
And as others have already noted, killing is noisy and alerts others, so not only is it not in keeping with the spirit of Thief, it generally creates more problems for you as a player than it solves. And frankly, I always feel a little bit like a failure if I have to resort to killing. I feel like I should be better than that, both as a Thief player, and somehow morally as the character I'm playing. That may sound silly, but to me that's all part of an immersive experience.
There are exceptions of course, as others have mentioned, but for me that usually takes the form of authors making it impossible to proceed without unreasonably long periods of waiting for a break in no-KO guard patrols in rooms full of tile, or some such situation. At that point the gameplay has become too tedious to be fun, and I'll take out a guard in order to proceed. But that has been a very rare occurrence in my experience.
So I guess for me, the presence or absence of a no kill objective is pretty irrelevant. I'm not going to kill anyway, whether it's allowed or not.
Psych0sis on 4/6/2019 at 02:36
My only issue with the whole matter is authors often forget to apply it to undead, which I guess makes sense because who cares if you take out something that's already been lost/dead for a long time.
Eiji on 6/6/2019 at 19:52
well.. I prefer to not kill.... first off, its not very stealthy... they make a noise that can alert other nearby guards or servants.
but then again.. when faced with guards with those taffin, trickster-loving, KO-proof helmets... *ARGH* (hits head against wall several times..)
unless I can stock several gas arrows or mines... its something I just love to hate....
Eiji on 6/6/2019 at 19:56
Quote Posted by Psych0sis
My only issue with the whole matter is authors often forget to apply it to undead, which I guess makes sense because who cares if you take out something that's already been lost/dead for a long time.
well.. theres a difference I've seen with undead... taking down a zombie is still dangerous since they can get right back up unless you dowse them with holy water...
but in the case of a Haunt.. well, I prefer them... when you take one down, they STAY down.
pukey brunster on 7/6/2019 at 16:14
Thanks for your detailed replies! I really enjoyed reading them and hearing your thoughts.
They strengthen my suspicion that the majority of Thief players have, for lack of a better term, a kind of 'honor code' not to kill, whether or not it is a required objective. And perhaps this honor code is not for moral reasons, so much as viewing it as a personal fail. After all, Garrett is the most skilled Thief that ever lived.. he is one with the shadows. He is an artist. As Fen said "I barely register no-kill objectives when I read them, it almost feels more like tradition to have them than anything else" which reflects how I have viewed these.
Killing AI (at least human AI) is a break-in-case-of-emergency situation.
Of course.. there's always my way..
Inline Image:
http://i66.tinypic.com/1et0fc.pngBut, nevermind that.
I haven't included no-kill objectives yet in FM's, except to exclude specific AI that are needed to progress the mission or story, and will probably keep it that way for now. I'd rather keep it open to all styles of gameplay, than narrow the playing field.
Thanks again Taffers :cheeky:
zajazd on 7/6/2019 at 16:39
One shot killing guards from a distance is satisfying though.
ValmontPhl on 9/6/2019 at 04:45
Quote Posted by zajazd
One shot killing guards from a distance is satisfying though.
^--- This right up here ---^
An interesting question because the answer, from anyone, depends on how they view Garrett. An oft unspoken draw to Thief is that it's not really Garrett - it's you.
There are typically no detailed maps if any and YOU have to figure it out, not Garrett. Getting up to the roof is not something that Garrett does a la Ezio - YOU have to figure it out. And what's more, it's not the Hammers/Mechs/beasts/undead etc we have to anticipate - it's the author's style and thinking. I don't wonder where Garrett would have put the switch to the secret stash - I wonder where Pukey would have put it.
All that said, I am sure there are some missions I've skipped or not finished, let alone enjoyed, because I didn't feel like dealing with a no kill or detected restriction that day - I vote nay to nokill and yay to the real Garrett, us, playing how we like.
"Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." - Dr Ian Malcolm
dbrilliant on 9/6/2019 at 13:03
In my opinion, I believe it's based on choice and difficulty level. Normally, Expert would have no kills, and sometimes, no blackjack knockouts, which are very challenging. I've played several modes. Usually, I start a mission on easy/lowest difficulty and learn the mission, then if I really like it, which I mostly do, then go medium or expert. Most of the time, I can't make it through expert, due to hard areas to enter/exit, or if the gold objective is too high and can't find enough. Of course I'm getting off-track here... lol.... I'd build FMs w/ both options, and make it easily recognizable in the main objective screen for no-kill/no KO.
bjack on 11/6/2019 at 17:26
If the "no kill" objective makes sense, such as you do not want to alert anyone to any nefarious action on your part, then OK. No KOs are much harder for me, since I usually go for the black jack in difficult situations, such as too many patrols and the need to unlock a brightly lit door quickly - with no decent shadows nearby and lots of marble floors + no available moss arrows. Cruel and/or novice authors like to do that routine ;)
