No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but... - by Flux
jtr7 on 5/4/2008 at 20:57
The bias against consoles comes from the limitations they impose on game design. A PC can have a wide range of memory, speed, and controllers, while the consoles have a set amount of memory, speed, and less controllers. PC's can allow many options for a player to customise and personalise to make the game fit their individuality. Consoles provide less options. It's considered dumbing down when a game designer has to scrap an idea because it requires one byte too much. I would really like to find that quote from a TDS dev about wishing they could squeeze another 10 MBs from the XBox (I can't remember the quote accurately enough to hone in on it). A game that is designed with those fixed limitations in mind, which chooses the right compromises (often by chance), and is never so ambitious that it seems ham-strung by the limitations, will be a perfectly fine console game. The same game ported to a PC that is much more powerful, yet doesn't utilise any of those grand capabilities, will seem to fall short of what it "could have been".
Also, one PC to play games on versus needing several consoles to play the same games is generally considered a superior investment. Those that spent hundreds of dollars for a console to play the one game they wanted aren't making consoles look good to the PC-only crowd, when the PC can potentially do so much more. Just some thoughts. I really can only care about my own computing needs and desires, and how they are limited by my finances and time.
p7eter on 5/4/2008 at 21:21
assuming that's not fake.
plus wasn't that guy working on dx3?
Zillameth on 5/4/2008 at 21:26
Quote Posted by Gambit
Why console gaming carry this weird "dumbed down" curse on them ?
Because it's kind of true, for several reasons.
First, consoles are made with certain target groups in mind, and yes, the target group of X-Box is "teenagers playing Halo multiplayer shouting 'fag u teh sux'". There is also a kind of positive feedback loop. "Dumb" games are popular, so they get made, so they become popular, so they get made, and so on.
Look at Thief fandom. It's made in large part of 30+ years olds. And women. Nobody in the "AAA" market makes games for 30+ years old women (except for Sims, but even Sims creators admit they didn't do that on purpose). In return, 30+ years old women are generally uninterested with "hardcore" consoles. This causes games like Thief not to be made, because they "don't sell", and this causes 30+ years old women not to buy console games, because "they are for little boys". This will only change if general audience consoles, such as Wii, prevail over formatted products aimed at specific customer groups. One of advantages of the PC is that it has always been a platform "for everybody". The illusion of its intellectual superiority comes from the fact that PC audience is far more diverse.
Second, there is only so much you can do with gamepad. On one hand, it's some 20 buttons versus one hundred, and you don't have a mouse (technically speaking, you lack a linear camera rotation controller; you have to use an integrating controller instead, which is like shooting airplanes with slingshots). On the other hand, keyboard is something everybody uses a lot, therefore it's something you don't need to learn to use before you can play a PC game. Gamepads are much more obscure. These two factors combined mean that the efficiency level you can expect from a statistical console player, as well as the amount of data they can absorb, is much lower than in case of PCs. Mind you, not because console players are dumb. They are simply less familiar with their tools, which in turn are less ergonomic than mouse & keyboard.
That being said, some console games are actually quite complex in some respects. For instance, Gears of War (which I personally don't like, because the whole machismo thing makes me sick) uses cover system, which enchances traditional FPS gameplay with additional layer of "risk management". GoW is more of a "tactical shooter" than Far Cry was.
Quote Posted by Gambit
Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are console exclusive and I wouldn´t call them dumbed down.
Yes, but for some reason whenever someone needs to point to a not-dumb console game, they always point to Ico and Shadow of the Colossus. Which is somewhat strange, because SotC is actually a rather simple game with no real story and no real characters, and it's also quite forgiving in that you get rather blatant hints whenever the game decides you're stuck (even if you're not). It's pretty, it's vast, it has a certain "atmosphere", and it's definitely worth playing, but it's neither complex nor mind-challenging.
Gambit on 5/4/2008 at 22:42
Thanks Jtr7 and Zillameth for all the insight.
It really reminds me when fans of literature find out that Hollywood wants to make a blockbuster film for their favorite book. You feel excited because it´s about your favorite book, but then you fear it because it´s Hollywood.
But I found an interview from the director of Eidos Montreal, about Deus Ex 3, and his answers seemed connected to our desires, so I am having more hope for the future.
(
http://www.developmag.com/interviews/104/QA-Stephane-DAstous-Eidos-Montreal)
Here are my favorites parts:
Quote:
I guess, when it comes to doubts over Eidos Montreal handling Deus Ex, it's worth bearing in mind how Crystal Dynamics reversed the fortunes of the Tomb Raider brand…
Indeed.
And there are other titles that Eidos own which have great value to them but they haven't been given much attention recently. Montreal is being seen as a great spot to give new life to these franchises. Our first challenge is a major one in Deus Ex -
but if the company doesn't do anything with these franchises people will eventually forget they existed.Quote:
Will Eidos Montreal always be working on revamping existing IP?
The first project, as we know, is Deus Ex and that's an existing IP.
The next game we start next year is also a current property that Eidos owns. But the third will be an original product. So we have a good three step process that not only helps grow the studio but lead towards original IP. I'm really happy with the plan. We're ahead of schedule too.
And here is the BEST quote:
Quote:
The Deus Ex series itself is quite highly regarded by both journalists and a number of developers, and given how the original creators have all gone on to work for Disney, EA and Midway how are you going to prove to the cynics that your new studio is worthy of the series, of the challenge?
All the developers working on Deus Ex 3 pretty much know the series inside and out - coming here, they were pretty aware of the opportunity and what they could do. We did our research to find out what worked well, what people enjoyed about it - especially the first game. The second was a success in the eyes of some, but had some ups and downs, so we've tried to identify what worked well in that game.
Most importantly, we're extracting what worked well and can be applied now. In the five, six years since that series arrived technology has changed significantly and we have to be careful - we don't want to create more of the same. Instead we've identified the features that can be transposed well onto new technology that arrived several years later.Myagi on 5/4/2008 at 22:52
Quote Posted by jtr7
The bias against consoles comes from the limitations they impose on game design. A PC can have a wide range of memory, speed, and controllers, while the consoles have a set amount of memory, speed, and less controllers.
In all fairness, arrow trails, loot glint, third person etc. or the lack of option to turn off some of these "features", are not due to some console limitation but just (very) bad design choices. So a lot of the bias stems from developers (often with pressure from publishers) making dumbing down choices in order to sell more console copies, and then having an extremly small or non-existant budget to give a PC version the extra attention it would need. I guess they also wouldn't want to make the PC version too superior, how would that make a console version look ;)
Quote Posted by Gambit
his answers seemed connected to our desires
a dime for every time a developer claimed something that was connected with our desires... :)
jtr7 on 5/4/2008 at 23:02
I, of course, was not referring to bells and whistles, but map size, polycount, sound layering, and overall sophistication. I cannot stand neon glowing, bright rainbow colors, trailing light, sparkles, and hand-holding, and wasn't even thinking of them when I commented.:)
Thief_4 on 6/4/2008 at 01:22
what time frame would you all want thief 4 to be in???.
i will wait to post my idea till i see a couple ideas
well i will post one of my ideas,having thief 4 set in anicent japan.
User was banned by Digital Nightfall on 8-4-2008
Forge Of Michael on 6/4/2008 at 01:30
Hmm...
Late Victorian England, 1880-1890.
Does Thief even have a timeframe?
sethL on 6/4/2008 at 01:49
Thief pretty obviously dosen't take place in our world/history/whatever.
The best thing they could do is move it up to Victorian era steampunk a la Arcanum.
paloalto90 on 6/4/2008 at 02:01
Since the mechanists made Garrett a mechanical eye why not a whole body except for his brain:wot:
Otherwise if your going to move far into the future Garrett will have to go.And a Thief game without Garrett somewhere would not have the magic.
The future isn't going to be future earth nor does it have to be all that modern at least not from where it started.I would say pre industrial or industrial with primitive firearms.Something like early industrial England.
Then you would have to extrapolate what would happen to the factions?
Even more tension between the Hammers driving the industry and the Pagans who may completely go underground and metamorph into something else.
I can't see Garrett as head of any organization like the Keepers.
The glyphs lose their power and fade away.The Keepers scatter.
The ascendency of the Thieves begins with a race with the Hammers to control the primitive new weapons in the city and to perfect them.The metamorphed pagans have learned to control the dead and other creatures
with their magic.The corrupt citizens begin to setup their trade of guns.
Garrett becomes a fence for the trained grown up girl.
Garrett sees the gun as a threat to his way of life and that of his student.Think Samurai in Japan
against guns.
Garret has to do a mission in the end bringing his involvement full circle.
If it is too far into the future without Garrett with a time warp thing it won't work.Nor will it give the connection with the character needed.
Skyscrapers and electronics won't cut it at all.
