No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but... - by Flux
Chade on 7/4/2008 at 04:53
I'd question whether some of those "improvements" would help the gameplay for anyone but skilled and confident hardcore sneakers (so maybe have this stuff on harder difficulty levels).
Firstly, making it harder to hide after being caught helps encourage you not to take risks, but it also encourages to fight if you do get caught. I think allowing the player to run away and try a stealthy approach again is bad for really hardcore players, but good for anyone else. I'd much prefer to encourage newbies to run away and try sneaking through again then to encourage them to kill the guard rather then running and alerting half the level because that's what it takes to loose the guy.
Also, having guards notice more stuff in the environment is really cool. I loved it in TDS. But that's because I'm a confident player. I'm not so sure it's good for newbies. Why let people interact with stuff only to make it really hard to interact with it in a way that helps you? If a player wants to go through a window, let them. If a player wants to create a shadow by moving a barrel, don't discourage that.
Renault on 7/4/2008 at 05:08
I noticed the "T" graphic has been abruptly replaced... :weird:
Shadak on 7/4/2008 at 07:57
Yeah, now it's an "Anti-Heros Welcome" yellow Eidos poster
jtr7 on 7/4/2008 at 08:02
Quote:
I'd question whether some of those "improvements" would help the gameplay for anyone but skilled and confident hardcore sneakers
(so maybe have this stuff on harder difficulty levels).Exactly. Expert should require greatest stealth. Expert THIEF, not combatant. The first level has to ease the player into the required gameplay. Newbies should get a strong and immersive training level, skippable by the veterans or the brave, as with the first Thief. It should saturate the player with nearly-everything that makes the game worthwhile, and I'd like to see a bigger training level that has less linearity near the end. A newbie that does not heed the instructions, does not play it stealthy, and does not think more, should not be catered to. I don't play games that aren't at least
mostly the kind I like.
Heh. I know it's cost and time prohibitive, but it'd be funny if the difficulty setting also affected the game media to reflect whether one played as a Novice or Master Thief, so the AI would speak to and about the player's level accordingly. The greater the difficulty level, the less doubt and the more fear of the player character's capabilities and reputation.
Quote:
Firstly, making it harder to hide after being caught helps encourage you not to take risks, but it also encourages to fight if you do get caught.
Don't get caught, or the fight will end badly for you, just like the devs originally intended--even though they thankfully made provisions so survival is possible. Use the tools of the trade to escape, like the games intended. Don't go into a situation unprepared. If you don't have a flashbomb, gas bomb, or the time to fire an incapacitating arrow, more stealth is required. Know where the ropes and ladders are before you really go to work in a space. How many newbies have come in here complaining about how hard
Thief is when they are playing like it's
Quake? Once they adjust their thinking, once they "get" it, they find the only thing that's really difficult is being patient. On Expert, I'd like to see the happy melee-lovers a little less smug. Let them play at a lower difficulty level if they want bloodshed.
Quote:
If a player wants to go through a window, let them. If a player wants to create a shadow by moving a barrel, don't discourage that.
Jumping out a window? Absolutely!
Moving objects to create cover? Absolutely!
I'm glad the devs created the buried options and media for having the AI notice moved and missing objects. I'm also glad they realised that the game is too difficult and less enjoyable when it's implemented in-game. That's one of those options I understand could ruin the game experience.
Slamelov on 7/4/2008 at 08:11
Quote Posted by Brethren
There's lots of things that could be added to increase stealth AI - noticing doors/windows that are opened and/or unlocked, noticing missing guards or guards not at their posts, missing loot, objects out of place, better vision, better hearing, unpredictable/random patrol routes, alerting other AI when suspicious things happen, etc. Some of these have been done in the OMS and some in FMs, but all could be either added or improved on.
Picture a guard seeing an open door, increasing his alert level but not indicating it to the player. Then he doubles back unexpectedly to see if he can catch his prey unaware.
Or how about the guard notices missing loot, walks away, and then returns with 2 friends.
Or a guard relocking a picked door. Or going into a stealth mode of his own after suspicious activity, sneaking up silently on the player. The possibilities are endless.
I've also always thought it would be great if knocked out guards actually woke up. Maybe only on a higher difficulty setting though.
What is OMS?
van HellSing on 7/4/2008 at 08:22
Original missions.
jtr7 on 7/4/2008 at 08:46
"OMs", Original Missions. In after van HellSing.
Since it takes time to play a large building stealthily, having the guards notice the player's work can keep the player from completing his/her goals before it becomes a bust. It would work fine for small buildings.
I'd like to be able to create a diversion that isn't an obvious infiltration, like causing AI to fight. And a noisemaker arrow should never cause an AI to investigate an area that isn't part of it's territory. A Noble or Pagan should never go investigate a sound on Hammer grounds, for instance. A Merchant should never investigate a sound in a City Watch guard station. A servant should rarely ever investigate, but should trot off to avoid getting involved.
I'd like to be able to climb a rope to any window above the ground and under a wooden overhang, and try to break in. There should be consequences with choosing a window that isn't part of a side-quest or the plot. I want to hear dogs barking, see lights coming on, and shouting about a prowler once in awhile. I want to learn which buildings are worth trying and which aren't, for all the buildings that aren't tied to the plot.
I want to see increased danger for increased greed. If the player's looting every building, one after another, then the nieghborhood should react. The next building in a string of robberies on the same street should be trouble. Efficiency and careful choosing of jobs should be encouraged more than clearing out everything available. A larger City, with more doors and windows, and an encouragement to use less weaponry, will still provide enough money to purchase items with. Big heists should be more important than dozens of petty thefts, or serial larceny for the power-up.
RavynousHunter on 7/4/2008 at 09:20
Hmmm... I think a little inspiration from two of my fav live action YouTube vids could be of use here... Least for making the game a little less "non-linear," if you want, do a search for Russian Climbing Ninjas and Urban Ninja, pretty good, and it would add a hell of a lot more fun to being stealthy, imo.
Imagine if Altair had Keeper training... And the Assassin's Creed engine would've incorporated the audiovisual stealth from the Dark Engine... Oh the sweetness that could ensue...
Chade on 7/4/2008 at 10:41
Quote Posted by jtr7
Don't get caught, or the fight will end badly for you, just like the devs originally intended--even though they thankfully made provisions so survival is possible. Use the tools of the trade to escape, like the games intended. Don't go into a situation unprepared. If you don't have a flashbomb, gas bomb, or the time to fire an incapacitating arrow, more stealth is required. Know where the ropes and ladders are before you really go to work in a space. How many newbies have come in here complaining about how hard
Thief is when they are playing like it's
Quake? Once they adjust their thinking, once they "get" it, they find the only thing that's really difficult is being patient. On Expert, I'd like to see the happy melee-lovers a little less smug. Let them play at a lower difficulty level if they want bloodshed.
I'm not exactly sure how much we are disagreeing here. I think encouraging the player to run away and try again is a good way of dealing with the player getting caught, at least for people still learning how to sneak. I think it is better then giving the player options to take the offending guard out. So far I don't seem to be disagreeing with you (?).
I think having the AI's run out of breath is a good way of accomplishing these goals, giving the player a chance to hide and try again.
For every newbie coming in here to complain there are probably a hundred who just give up. It's important for the game to advertise stealth in every way possible.
Gambit on 7/4/2008 at 12:24
That´s why I believe that the difficulty levels should be so different.
Normal setting are for the newcomers. You can even play it melee style if you want. The guards run out of breath. They reset their alert status to normal after some time even if they saw a fellow guard dying in front of them. They don´t care about missing loot, open doors, unlit torches...
The best of the AI should be left for Expert. And Expert should be hardcore. It should be the "No way I´m going to complete it", it´s the stealth version of a Doom´s Nightmare difficulty. It´s supposed to scare newcomers but after they get experience at the Normal and Hard levels they will be happy to experience the big mode.
As for better AI, I believe it can be better to avoid the old bug exploitaitons. The fact that they couldn´t climb ladders or take cover was a sign to just bait them to a ladder, climb it and start shooting them to death while they run towards your wall aimlessly.
