The Magpie on 10/4/2008 at 14:03

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You didn't even read his sidebar, did you?

Enough of that. Here's something which I don't think has been properly addressed previously in the thread.

Any team wishing to do something Thieflike - let's, for instance, use The Dark Mod team as case in point, since that's something we know is in development - needs to go deep. Way deep. To quote (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7381&Itemid=2) Ken Levine:



I say. In this thread we agree that Thief was, in fact, a "successful franchise", do we not? (It's entirely possible that LGS stumbled upon the formula of our addiction by accident, like Levine almost makes it sound like, but hey.) They did have the right ideas for Thief, and the will to push forward. That needs to be present in a team producing a gameplay experience such as The Dark Mod. When designing levels, one should pay special attention to how they'll feel to the player.

That's got to be the number one selling point. The gameplay itself is more or less to emulate Thief. The story is actually not that important. But if it doesn't quite feel right, you're hosed. Like all art, the amount by which a game may transcend beyond "mere" craftsmanship is to which degree it possesses an innate ability of emotional evocation. Like some survival/horror titles manages pretty convincingly. Now, IMHO the way some Japanese titles (games and anime) do it is the wrong way to go - I find that for me, their paintbrushes are often too heavy. Some like it that way, though.

One needs to capture the feel of the gameworld. Not just atmosphere, but try to make it feel real. Make the player believe. Make us suspend our disbeliefs. Not to the point of simulation, but to the point of keeping a sustained sense of wonder. In other words, immersion. That's what I keep asking for.

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L.

New Horizon on 10/4/2008 at 14:56

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There is validity to some of the complaints about Bioshock though. Levine himself often visited the TTLG forums during development and talked the game up to be something that it definitely wasn't. I don't think people are so much angry about how Bioshock turned out, they're angry that they were lead to believe they were going to get a true spiritual successor to System Shock. I think if Ken had of spoken honestly about the game then people wouldn't have felt quite so disappointed. I think there was a much deeper, almost personal relationship felt by some TTLG folk towards Irrational Games, and they didn't expect to be sold a lot of hype. Bioshock was a great shooter, but I wouldn't have called it a spiritual successor to System Shock...I think that's what really mislead a lot of people.

The Magpie on 10/4/2008 at 15:52

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Who complained about derailing five posts ago?

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L.

Gambit on 10/4/2008 at 16:32

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There are many T4 expectations.
Most of us are afraid that it may repeat some T3 errors (and I will refrain to turn this into an attack of T3 witch had problems but witch I honestly enjoyed and liked).

So far many of he problems were engine problems:

-Loading Zones
-Map size
-No swimming
-No rope-arrows
-No good ragdoll physics

I´m certain these main concerns are not going to be repeated in T4. They are going to use a better engine.

As for the rest of TDS criticism, they were design based ones. Atomic blue color, readables, glint, HUD, etc. But T4 is not going to copy T3 design decisions.
That doesn´t mean they won´t make new bad designs, that´s honestly a case of wait and see.

The last T4 concerns I see are with mainstreaming, "dumbing down". Dumbing down both the storyline and the gameplay. At least the gameplay has the difficult modes to appeal both newcomers and veterans. As for storiline, I will agree that this is uncertain territory... So many paths.
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Now staying away from the fear game we have the expectation game.

Remember how in the Prince of Persia: Sands of Time you could wall-run ?
Then in the Warrior Within you had a better fighting system ?
Then in Two Thrones you had all that and the fast killing modes ?
(no I don´t want Garrett wall-running...)

What I want to say is that with each sequel the specific gameplay can be improved. New stealth moves for Garrett (and again POP was just a loose comparison, no superjumps :P ), new ways to interact with the world, new things to make Thief gameplay better that only today´s technology can provide.

SubJeff on 10/4/2008 at 17:05

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I'd be happy with wall running and acrobatics. They could easily be integrated into stealth based play. You might wall run to avoid a guard, you might do some Jackie Chan style jumps to get into the rafters. Why not? If done well it could be great. Heck, I'm all for expanding and extending the gameplay as long as it's done well.