No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but...

blueDepths on 11/4/2008 at 11:26

This may be considered sacrilege, but I think the option to improve the skills of the Player Character would be nice. Also, looting houses should be more worthwile than in TDS, there should be other things to it than just stocking up water arrows for the next mission.

The Magpie on 11/4/2008 at 11:42

@jtr7: Contextual monster autospawning. Heh. The way you wrote it, it would possibly be a little too much like old Sammy in the museum. But it is twistable. Let's say e.g. the craybeasts are able to summon more of their kind. Unless the player can stop them in time.

The demise of a Théâtre des Vampires is kind of intriguing. A theater stage is all in keeping with the setting, although it's possibly too similar to the Opera House.

@blueDepths: I believe the permanent improvement of character skills is a dangerous way to go. Here's why. 1. You already have the option of temporary skill boosting through potions. 2. You already get access to better equipment. 3. It would mark a step towards roll-playing math rather than role-playing immersion. 4. It would lend a sense of falseness to the feeling of mastery when the player feels upon completing a mission. Etc.

Anyway.
I want a new Thief title to pay close attention to CANONICAL concepts.

Just 'cuz I'm anal. ;)

--
L.

SubJeff on 11/4/2008 at 12:47

Quote Posted by The Magpie

I believe the permanent improvement of character skills is a dangerous way to go. Here's why. 1. You already have the option of temporary skill boosting through potions. 2. You already get access to better equipment. 3. It would mark a step towards roll-playing math rather than role-playing immersion. 4. It would lend a sense of falseness to the feeling of mastery when the player feels upon completing a mission. Etc.

In response and for your consideration:

1. Potions only boost certain things. Even with an option to boost a skill potions have a role in that a.they may further enhance, b.they allow for temporary testing of skills before opting to learn them and c.there may be places you want to use a skill without wanting to permanently learn it.

2. I believe any sequel (to Thief) should build on the equipment set and that some types of equipment should require training to use. Staying with the same equipment set will get very, well, samey. There is place for much expansion and refinement in Thief's toolset. Tiers of lockpicks for example, options for different missile weapons (longbow, shortbow, crossbow, throwing knives, etc), poison making skills (and I mean different types of poisons with poison crafting tiers).

3. I don't envisage a stat based system, not one with visible stats anyway. But we already have a core roleplay system, and there are even stats based gameplay elements such as different walkspeeds and the noise generated. Why not extend that a little more without going full-on "your lockpick skill is 35"?

4. I completely disagree. Even in Dark Messiah, which is a pop version of what I envisage, there is tremendous feeling of mastery to be gained from approaching the same scenario with different skills and doing it your way with the skills you have invested in. In fact I'd argue there is MORE feeling of mastery.

Beleg Cúthalion on 11/4/2008 at 13:26

Please don't consider this as brute opposition, but I'm largely against extending Garrett's weapons (the tools have been changed twice, so maybe there is a little leeway, but I would also dislike crazy spin-offs like noise suppressors or EMP grenades like in T2X). The reason is (realism and) that we already have what we need and it would surely move the focus of the whole game to using these new toys (Look there's a spiky wall to kick the orc into!).

I hate throwing knives for their miraculous ability to hit always with the edge. They were fun in Dark Messiah, but I've always considered this game as a physics demo with voice-over. I could not take it for real in Thief. Longbows are practically useless in narrow places and as long as a 50" horse bow provides the same power for average distances, there is no need I guess. This is getting out of hands and becomes a mere...game. Youknowwhatimean. =|
Still, I think my idea to leave the "sword choice" to the player is not so bad after all.

Inline Image:

http://www.eidosforum.de/images/smilies/addon/kratz.gif :p When you know the briefing (yes! briefing videos!) sounds like zombies and not like the noble quarter, take it with you.

SubJeff on 11/4/2008 at 13:57

I wouldn't want "crazy" spin-offs either. I'm talking bow alternatives, long, short, recurve, composites and so on each with pros and cons. Sword, dagger or short sword - with pros and cons. Lockpick types for easier or harder locks (with suitable skill based, ie not T1, 2 or TDS, lockpicking system).

No spiky walls.

But I wouldn't mind climbing tools, not gloves, like ashiko. Poison applied to arrows or blades for extra effect, caltrops (poisoned or not) and so on. Simple stuff that would fit. It may make things seem a bit ninja-esk but heck it does anyway and so what?

Gambit on 11/4/2008 at 14:31

There´s nothing wrong with Ninjas.

They are the guys who embraced stealth as their main weapon.
And they created great tools and skills to aid them.

The problem is that Hollywood, cartoons and other media just use them as cheap gimmick. So we sometimes think Ninja=Anime Mainstream.

Briareos H on 11/4/2008 at 14:59

The core idea of Thief is that you're Garrett, the master thief, someone skilled enough to take care of any situation given the correct tools. The ensuing core gameplay is that it's up to you as a "perfect" player to do what it needs to get out of a tough spot, plan a break-in, find the darkest shadows. In Thief, you are given a set of stealth-based rules, a role to play, a first person perspective, a setting, a basic map, a few tools and then the task to take care of the rest in an open environment.

As long as the set of rules is the same, as long as the role you play is as enthralling as Garret's, as long as the perspective is first person (something that TDS did very wrong imo), as long as the environment remains open (another TDS failure) and as long as the tools of the trade are exciting (again, climbing gloves just didn't feel right to me), you'll have a Thief game. I wouldn't mind it being contemporary to the previous games. Even a modern environment ala Deep Cover wouldn't bother me as long as the core formula is the same.

And please, no skill improvement.

SubJeff on 11/4/2008 at 15:27

Optional skill improvement. If you don't want to learn poison crafting don't. If you don't want to us a crossbow don't. If you don't want to learn to wallrun don't.

By including this stuff the game is more open and therefore accessible. Hardcores don't have to use this other stuff though.

Edit: These things should be there to facilitate, not exclude and therefore no goal, no loot, and no secret or area of any kind should be accessible only to people with certain skills. Tools, yes, but then we did sometimes run out of rope arrows when we wanted to climb somewhere didn't we?

Zillameth on 11/4/2008 at 16:09

As far as tools of trade go, "my" Thief 4 would have a dagger and a sword (for more or less the kind of choice Beleg mentioned), and also a shortbow and a crossbow (less stealthy, but more comfortable to use, with similar or slightly slower rate of fire to discourage first person shootery). Also, I would attempt to include ice arrows like the ones in Thief2x, because they create interesting new opportunities. EMP bombs did fit Mechanist era City nicely, in my opinion (more than the train, anyway), but they probably wouldn't do for a setting more similar to TDP.

I would retain all tools from first two parts. Climbing gloves are nice on the conceptual level, but if I had to choose between them and rope arrows, I would prefer the latter. And I'm afraid a choice would need to be made, because the combined ability to climb both wood and stone means there is no way to stop the player from getting virtually anywhere (e.g. beyond the edge of the world).

The main character would be "The Girl from TDS Ending", because while I would like Thief 4 to take place in "medieval", rather than "modern" period, I think the story of Garrett is over. Good stories know when to end. However, Garrett himself is still alive after a huge success, as the obligatory Portal reference would have it and could be a supporting character.

There would be no skill progress other than player's own improvement, because there are already many features and components in this game and I think it's complex enough without adding a whole new dimension. I really like the unique aspect of Thief: it's a role-playing game without stereotypical RPG artifacts (such as skill system, among other things). On the other hand, I would like the City to be more responsive to player's actions, which also means I'd like to expand on the concept of faction system (no "friendship meters" this time, though).

At the same time, the concept of "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, only better" is tempting, and I wouldn't mind it as a potential spinoff. In fact, I'm all for crazy spinoffs, if the series becomes succesful enough, because, a) it's a way to help make sure there will be a Thief 5, Thief 6 and so on, b) Change is Good, c) different people have different needs, and d) nobody really has to play everything with Thief brand on it. For example, I think the City would be an excellent setting for a turn-based strategy game of espionage and covert operations.

As I said, no jumpy-slashy stuff. I wouldn't even include it as an option, because this kind of compromise is the surest way to wake up some day with the publisher demanding that only jumpy-slashy stuff stay, because reasearch shows 70% of customers want jumpy-slashy stuff and the rest are just some old crazy fanpersons who don't know when to let go of what they have gotten used to.

(On the other hand, maybe I should destroy the series so that there is no competition for my stealth based role-playing game about wooden spaceships.)

jtr7 on 11/4/2008 at 17:43

I'm with you Beleg, about the sword, and other tools of the trade, being an optional player choice before a mission, and stop adding new gadgetry to the player's arsenal.

I don't like increasing the player character's skills, rather, the player's own skills should be given a reason to grow as the game progresses. If the fourth Thief were to begin a new story intended to lead into a sequel, the level-ups would make it seem that the character has suddenly lost all his/her abilities between the end of the first and the beginning of the second. Since I am emphatic about the importance of the story, as it spans more than one game, I'm against the player character levelling up. But canon does allow the player to use more specialised tools in missions with unusual circumstances (i.e., vine arrows, frogbeast eggs, gas mines, gas arrows, Constantine's sword), which all work on established principles but enhance them, and are either rare or a choice item at the store.

I've never perceived Garrett as a ninja. Ninja implies assassin. Thief implies one who is infiltrating to steal things, not life.

Poisons are pretty unnecessary. The weapons are already effective enough. To get the same effect, the player can do what skilled players have already done, and that's lead an AI into a trap. There are many examples of how the players have done this and it requires brains and skill. Perfect. It is canon that Garrett would get the Boss to kill themselves, the players have found more than one way to do that with AI in missions. If you want AI death that slowly comes on, with constant reduction of hit-points after a single move by the player, the system is already in place. Garrett's better than Lady Elizabeth.

I do not like the idea of caltrops against AI. I don't see how it could be done without the AI falling over and agonising endlessly without the player having to terminate them. In that case, if an AI with a ranged attack falls, let them be able to continue to attack the player. Burning someone alive was brutal, but at least it would come to an end, and the screaming would stop. :eww: