No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but...

SubJeff on 11/4/2008 at 18:08

As I've previously stated, there is a difference between simulated skill and player skill.

Garrett has the simulated skill of being able to use a bow. You the player learns how to use it over distance, given it's arc (which should be there for all arrows in my opinion - unless you increase your strength and can shoot straighter :p ). I absolutely would not have any simulated skill that did not require player skill to use, because otherwise things would be boring and exploitable.

You'd start off with the basic Thief skillset, whether you were Garrett or not, and develop from there. No losing of skills. No one said that and in fact since all of the skills I've suggested would be new to Garrett I'm going to have to assume that you're just jumping to conclusions again.

Caltrops could be used in cases where you were already seen to slow the enemy down. If you were having to pick a difficult lock and knew you might be seen you could strategically lay them just in case (and pick them up if they aren't needed). With a poison skill you could put sleeping, paralysing or killing poison on them, or even holy water. Of course an unalerted guard walking on unpoisoned caltrops would cause him to holler the place down. Then you'd be in trouble.

Of course in my idea Thief 4 combat would be very unforgiving so if you tried to take on a caltropped guard you'd be at big risk from his big ole sword. You could, of course, blackjack him :p

Gambit on 11/4/2008 at 18:15

Doesn´t need to be painful.

It can just be a morphine dart/arrow that slows the AI movement.
And it would be optional, of course, availiable at the shop. And a bit expensive on Expert.

And some Ninjas tools and techniques could be implanted on the game. Their stealth techniques, not their assassination techniques.

...

Although it wouldn´t be the end of the world IF they let whoever is the T4 hero to become a killer AS AN ALTERNATIVE GAME. You could play Thief as it should be played and get the canon ending. But there would be a part in the storyline where you can decide to join an assassin guild. And then play the same missions but with alternative objectives and get an alternative ending. Think of it as choosing the dark path in the Dark Messiah of MM. It would not be the canon ending, harcore thief fans could easily ignore it by not joining the guild, but it would be there if you want to feel a more "Angel of Death" gameplay.

Just a thought anyway.

jtr7 on 11/4/2008 at 18:47

The point being, there are quite enough tools to do the job already, which work well enough. Enhancing them in a way that shows the evolution of real world technology and The City's growth makes better sense to me. Keep it in the same world. If the player character has Keeper-style training, then efficiency, not a broader pallette of tools, should be emphasised with optional elements for varied player preference. That would be true to Thief. If The City's engineers and architects begin to build with new materials, in new configurations, in ways that thwart the old tools and old methods of infiltration, then a new tool and method would be necessary. Make the changes necessary and "natural", and they will be better accepted.

Sadly, for many of us, a new player character might give the devs what they see as the perfect excuse to get away from the Garrett idiom.

Dussander on 11/4/2008 at 18:47

I like that TDS didn't have all those potions, invisibility and speed potions...

jtr7 on 11/4/2008 at 18:53

Yeah, they were a crutch. I used them when I first played, because they were there, and I hadn't figured out that I didn't ever need them, yet. There were also no alchemists shops as before, so maybe they were forced into hiding or killed. They may have been suspected of knowing the secret of Necrotic Mutox. Maybe the Keepers knew who was making it for Karras.:sly:

So Molock, what compells you to keep an eye on this thread?:D

SubJeff on 11/4/2008 at 18:57

Nothing I've mentioned is outside of the technology of the Thief world. And I'm all for strict limits on the amount of stuff you can carry so you wouldn't be able to have a massive batch of tools and toys.

Certain things should be added as a matter of course though. With increasing technology there is no reason, in game or out, for not having rope arrows that can be swung on or tied onto points for climbing along/sliding down. There is no reason to not have both rope arrows and climbing tools. In fact this would be more fun than one or the other, allow for more Thieves' Highway shenanigans and yes it would be easy to construct maps that you cannot escape from.

I'm not a big fan of invisibility potions but as long as they are expensive, hard to get, rare and not very long lasting then why not?

Why am I so adamant about this stuff? Because sticking to what we know is boring. Not to us but I'm being practical and to the general gaming public and devs/publishers who need to sell enough more options are a good thing. And they CAN be done well.

phide on 11/4/2008 at 19:09

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

I'm not a big fan of invisibility potions but as long as they are expensive, hard to get, rare and not very long lasting then why not?

Right with you. They've certainly helped me out in a pinch.

Beleg Cúthalion on 11/4/2008 at 19:20

I think I'm too old (well, or something else) to change my mind. Too many tools like SE suggested would make me fear that the whole focus lies on With-which-weapon-did-you-take-out-the-haunt-near-the-door-actions. Like Dark Messiah, as it were. jtr7 was right about the skills; this is an issue of the player. Left aside that there are already too many RPGs.

But the Ninja thing gave me one more idea: These climbing tools they were supposed to have have been tested by some German climber in a cheap TV show and he said that they were worse than climbing with bare hands (what these guys usually do). I haven't played Assassin's Creed and used it's climbing systems yet (and my humble knowledge about Shi'i sects makes me shiver even now), but making Garrett able to climb at least the things that everyone of us should be able to (e.g. metal fences, fancy facades) seems reasonable to me.

SubJeff on 11/4/2008 at 19:33

I'm only suggesting a limited expansion of the toolset that would expand player choice. This isn't about "taking out Haunts" (who, fyi, I think were far to weak in the first place).

You can only climb with bare hands when there is something to hold onto. And if you're climbing at night in Japan in the 1600s good luck with being able to see handholds. It's irrelevant anyway - have you ever heard of anyone, on German TV or not, using water arrows or climbing rope arrows or putting a stop to some Dark God's plans?

What you guys are suggesting is just a re-hash of what has been done. It doesn't work, not commercially, not critically, not so far on and certainly not when there is enough technology to do so much more.

jtr7 on 11/4/2008 at 19:33

Quote:

...making Garrett able to climb at least the things that everyone of us should be able to (e.g. metal fences, fancy facades) seems reasonable to me.

Yes! And it would allow changes to how maps are designed so there would be positive change, and less of the same old thing. I disagree that we are asking for the same old thing. A new thing needs a purpose other than tempting the easily bored with the new-fangled gadget. The story, the setting, and the maps should be different enough. If the player requires a new gadget, I think the game is misunderstood.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with tools being available for a good reason. For Garrett to suddenly need a new tool, when the others worked fine, there better be a good reason in that world. He better need them because he's crippled or something. If the game seems the same old thing to a player, then I have to believe the game isn't for them, because I find that world to be very rich and layered and it never bores me. Playing the game gives me tour of that world, the atmosphere permeates no matter how badly I suck at playing it. I don't love the game for just the puzzles, but the whole virtual world contained in each mission and across them all together.

As has been said before, given the choice of a rope arrow or a vine arrow, most players will opt for the vine arrow. The rope arrow, while an option, is redundant and inferior. Narrowing the choices down to a matter of economics--money and efficiency--will provide the options while forcing the player to think, and decide how the mission will go, for better or worse. A simpler compromise for this debate would be to have all the tools available on Normal, and mostly the better ones on Expert. Why would an Expert spend money on an inferior tool, unless he/she's feeling like horsing around, or is a miser? Your an Expert! Play the role and be an Expert! :D

Part of solving the puzzle on Expert is using the limitations wisely. Heck, even on Normal, which is much more forgiving. The limitations ARE an element of the puzzle. The limitations require thinking. Thief is lauded for being a thinking person's game. I'm all for freedom of movement in a highly-explorable environment, with a strong emphasis on vertical exploration. I'm against freedom of ways to hassle and punish AI when the necessity is small. I will refrain from saying not necessary from now on, since it's being associated with player choice rather than puzzle-solving requirement.

Potions, as I said, were a crutch. Their availability made me play recklessly and miss the point. Not good for a beginner. Not good to have a player using potions without earning them. It makes sense to have the emergency plan, so that should be emphasised.

It would help me to be more agreeable if the suggestions were worded in a way that didn't make it sound like a strong wish for Thief to become more like the same old FPS without the frenzy, or the same old RPG. I'm much more flexible when the suggestions are a subtle nudge, rather than an obvious dislike for the things I love which separate Thief into its own category.