No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but... - by Flux
Zillameth on 19/4/2008 at 13:56
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
It would be interesting if Thief 4 made this explicit by requiring you to pay rent, pay for food and clothes and so on. Proper book balancing and whatnot.
I don't see how this could be made into an interesting challenge or narrative device. Forcing the player to perform some actions just for the sake of performing them is not a good idea, because it turns a game into a chore.
For example, in roleplaying games of old, keeping track of food was a challenge, because it acted as either time or space constraint. A mission couldn't take you too long, and you couldn't move too far away from your hub. It doesn't make much sense in a town, because all distances and delays are short.
fett on 19/4/2008 at 14:48
Quote Posted by Springheel
That whole idea was ridiculous too. Garrett would spend just as much (sometimes more!) on his tools for a job as he got in loot. He'd never be able to retire that way. But what can you expect in an economy where a single broadhead arrow is worth as much as a golden plate? Garrett should have been robbing the fletcher's guild! :)
I always thought that bit was quite dodgy too. Seems like there should be an overarching game goal to save X amount by the end of the final mission. Then change the % notices (like the ones in TDS) to reflect the overall percentage needed (not just that single mission goal), so the player could keep track throughout the game of how much more was needed to complete the final objective of X amount. Obviously this is a feature that the player should be able to disable, but it would add a challenge to the buying and selling part of the game. Garrett would have to spend some of his take for tools and weapons, but keep an eye on how much he was saving as well (for the purpose of retirement, moving to a different city, or whatever). This would add a layer of complexity to the gameplay, as well as rewarding players who don't use as much equipment to save more than players who use lots of equipment. TDS tried to incorporate this some, but the balance was so terrible that it rendered the idea utterly useless.
Quote Posted by Zillameth
For example, in roleplaying games of old, keeping track of food was a challenge, because it acted as either time or space constraint. A mission couldn't take you too long, and you couldn't move too far away from your hub. It doesn't make much sense in a town, because all distances and delays are short.
But it would also lend relevance to the in-game food that's lying around. If my next mission is in the sewers - I know there won't be much (if any) food sources, so I have to carry some along. If I'm robbing a mansion - all I have to do is stop by the kitchen and munch some cheese to keep my health stat up, plus I don't have to bring much food along to sustain me through what might be a very long job.
Then again, the idea of Garrett not being man enough to last through a job without eating is a bit silly. It would probably only work on missions like the Lost City or THC where he didn't really know how long it would take (days? possibly - so take some food). Bafford's? In and out in a couple of hours (don't take food).
Renault on 19/4/2008 at 20:14
I think you guys are way too RPG minded. If you dragged some of the ex-LGSers in here, they'd probably tell you there's a reason the game was configured so that your loot doesn't carry over to the next mission. It seems very obvious they didn't want this to be part of the game. Not by coincidence, this is one of the things I really disliked about TDS. Garrett paying rent, buying groceries, and putting gold into his 401K? That's not the Thief that I know and love. :cheeky:
The focus should always be on the present and the mission at hand, and that fits perfectly into the personality of Garrett - taking things as they come. Garrett isn't the type to plan for his retirement, the only time he even talked about it was when he was going to get one big huge lump sum from Constantine.
Beleg Cúthalion on 19/4/2008 at 20:17
Speaking of food, I'd throw in the idea of getting away from his health points and potions principle. Making Garrett recover from small injuries while disabling him permanently if something went wrong completely. That could make the game more nerve-racking (as it would surely be in reality), but for the EXPERT difficulty, why not?
abdallah on 19/4/2008 at 20:29
^ Good idea. It works well in Call of duty, it would work well in Thief. Should be able to take a hit or two but that's it.
Something I would love to see in a game, though that's a difficult mechanic to make properly, is permanent damage, i.e break a foot and you're gimped for the remainder of that level / month.. Damage should have effects that you'd want to avoid. Problem with that idea is that it would be easier to just reload than to live with the damage, I'd imagine that's a pretty tricky thing to get around and to get right gamedesign wise.
MrBosnia on 19/4/2008 at 21:23
Another important thing Thief 4 should have is Thief 3's open environment.
There is no doubt that failed in Thief 3, as it was attack by game magazines across the globe. While interesting in theory (robbing passerby, exploring the city) it ended up being to crude and bland. It was nothing like Oblivion for a stealth game.
Thief 4 should take it and propel it forward, and really create a rich bustling city with lots of things to do. In today's standards, its not enough to just go from mission to mission, regardless how well made they are.
Renault on 19/4/2008 at 21:33
Quote Posted by MrBosnia
In today's standards, its not enough to just go from mission to mission, regardless how well made they are.
I don't think this has anything to do with "today's standards," it's just a different style of game design. I'm betting there's far more first person games these days that just go mission-to-mission instead of having some kind of a hub system.
jtr7 on 19/4/2008 at 22:56
I'd like to see less of the population walking around outdoors, and more people inside the buildings that aren't walking all around, busy, unless they are guards, or have a reason beyond creating an obstacle for the player.
A bit more about the passage of time, just a bit, plus a reminder of how torn up Garrett and his clothes are in the TDS concept art:
T_oldquarterLoadingQuote3: "A most promising acolyte, yes...but that was long ago. Now he is other...a thief...and probably worse... - Letter to Keeper Orland, author unknown"
And yeah, he's just really bad with money.
If he could steal food to fill his cupboards, and enjoy the more expensive cuts of meat, or fancily prepared meals of the nobles, than that would be more realistic, but it wouldn't mean much for the game--unless someone trades him hot tips for nobles' food. I still don't know where that Old Quarter 'pancake" :tsktsk: loot is. I'll have to check the loot lists.... Hmm. No mention of a pancake, so far. I wonder if that flag is code for something else, or if it's even used?
"OQ_Loot Pancake 1 Stolen"
We know how these sayings apply to the game, but if we pretend that the Thief Universe is a real place, then these sayings take on a different meaning, as they apply to a secret society of people with a history, who live and die, gather and lose knowledge, teach and are taught, and are supposed to be striving for balance.
"From each of us, the Glyphs will desire a different aspect. This is the balance we have struck."
"There are glyphs that can cause suffering and those that can end it...and precious few who know the difference. - Excerpt from the Forbidden Transcripts"
"Holding a key, you may infer the existence of a lock. But do not make the mistake of assuming that yours is the only key. - Handbook for Scribes"
"A scribe must learn to control the Glyphs...lest they seek to control the scribe. - from The Keeper Handbook for Scribes"
"The One will venture where none have tread...and the First shall follow the Last. - Excerpt from the Keeper Books of Prophecy"
"The Age of Darkness will be the child of two fathers...and their names are Ignorance and Fear. - from the journal of Keeper Artemus"
"As Keepers, it is our duty to remain apart - secret - invisible. To become part of the City would exert influences. - From The Eight Principles (Amended)"
"The First Keeper is merely a surrogate for the One True Keeper, whose eventual arrival we await with dread. - From the Collected Essays of D'Aberon"
"Cry, Brethren, for the Betrayer is Come. Your Hands will be Crippled, and you will Perish as the Wretched Outcast in the Bleak Unwritten. And you will know the face of the Destroyer. - Recovered text from The Prophecitus, missing for 132 years"
MrBosnia on 19/4/2008 at 23:40
Quote Posted by Brethren
I don't think this has anything to do with "today's standards," it's just a different style of game design. I'm betting there's far more first person games these days that just go mission-to-mission instead of having some kind of a hub system.
Played any FPS game in the past few years?
Zillameth on 19/4/2008 at 23:52
Well, I did and I haven't noticed any significant increase in a number of FPS games with a hub system.
