No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but...

Shadak on 21/4/2008 at 00:36

The problem with a "hub" system is it leaves too little to the imagination, and thus shrinks both the mystique and the literal size of the city.

In Thief 1 and 2 you imagined all the distances between these sections of the city where you had missions, distances that housed a large and largely unknown entity. With TDS we see every (tiny) inch between all the missions, and even if it's only the city center it still sorta ruined something, like turning up the ambient light WAY too high or something. Our imaginations got washed out.

That said, I still liked playing the city sections in TDS :) But I would be happy to see nothing of the sort in T4, unless they somehow pull it off just the right way

jtr7 on 21/4/2008 at 02:01

Being a Master Thief, he shouldn't be acquiring most of his loot through petty thievery, but through big time heists, collecting extra as he goes about doing that. Mugging shouldn't be encouraged, but something one could do as a last resort, if they've been wasteful, for whatever reason. The nobility shouldn't be walking around without personal guard, and far fewer of them walking around, period. They should be found in the fancier parts of town, or on their way to fancy get-togethers, or to catch a performance. The next game should not have this parade of easy pickings. To emphasise the last resort, the player should have to search for the one person to pickpocket.

Arbitrarily speaking, it could come up that he has to pay the rent, and when the day is done, that money is subtracted from the loot count. When the day is done, the player will have accrued more than enough. This shouldn't be that hard, but it must be, and I haven't heard an explanation. Create the opportunity to gain the needed wealth through the act of completing the mission objectives. It wouldn't even have to really be an objective to reach a minimum loot count, but it should be for more of the classic feel. Just getting the big item should more than pay for his living expenses until the next mission. It could even be worked into the story that he's going to be late with the rent because of a snag. A similar delay was already made in the games when Lady Elizabeth's thugs beat up Garrett's fence, Perry, so he wouldn't take the Opal.

So yeah, the bare minimum for finishing the mission leaves the player with enough wealth for deductions, and there are other items to steal for the greedy, or those who are simply compelled to clean out all available loot. It could simply be automatic, with the briefings and debriefings to make it understood.

I also like the older OMs forcing the player to carry over inventory items from one mission to another because there is no chance to see a fence or go to a store. For a player who can play a mission with nary any use of a weapon, this isn't a big deal, but it's a great learning experience for a newer player. In TDS, I never felt that tension from a need to be frugal with my gear. And knowing where and when I could find another crystal was too comforting, and threatened to become a crutch.

Part of the Thief Universe I wish had been better were the values attached to everything. I don't see why everything has to be double or triple digits, integers, and multiples of 5. Create a value system where everything is in proportion. Don't fences get their cut? If Garrett steals the Widow's money, Curtis should be a serious threat that makes Garrett pay. Curtis could've burned Garrett's apartment down, Mr. Z. Wicket could then have less or zero continued worries about being blackmailed and blame the arson on Garrett, and the City Watch AI could increase, while the commoners, servants, and nobility AI could be decreased. All accomplished through texts, one or two Garrett quotes, controlled by flags and variables, and a change in architecture similar to the Clock Tower's destruction (not easy, but not out of the question), and removal of the loading zone (too problematic?). And it would've given the devs a stronger reason to find alternatives to having everybody know where Garrett lives, and placing gifts or dangers in his apartment. He's a wanted man, and all the factions (and Curtis) know where he lives, but not the City Watch, not even after Garrett escapes from Pavelock. Is he a legendary hero to them that they suffer him to live, or allow him to live without suffering as sufficient repayment?

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The hub thing will be necessary (and ends up being more realistic vs. fun gameplay) the larger and more cohesive The City is constructed. Going to the corner market to get your bread and greens, the pub to get some brews, and the department store to get clothing and equipment are kinda what we do, and a virtual City would be no different. One proposal would be that Garrett, or the young woman who takes on the Master Thief mantle (could be useful as she wouldn't have Garrett's reputation with the Factions), does the Pagans a favor and they help out by creating portals (shortcuts!) so the player can roam out farther and get back to the fences and stores, or other mission-specific locations too far away to be fun to run/walk/slink to (especially if loading zones remain).

I still think Garrett gets his best cheese from the noble's homes. Speaking of cheese, here's a silly visual. How far away from the main hub, and the smaller hubs can we get before it's not fun to backtrack anymore. I was already annoyed with a lot of the backtracking I had to do in TDS.

Inline Image:

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1420/clouduc6.png
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Here's another goofy-ass question for those programmers and industry insiders. When are we going to see animated skins like animated *.gif textures? Done differently, of course, but what's preventing the possibility of having an AI walking around in an "A Scanner Darkly" scramble suit, or spell-casters having glowing (not bloom effects and aura-like glowing) nervous systems with power nodes coursing through the nerves of their arms and necks, or bugs crawling over a corpse, or an AI that can change it's appearance (kind of like shapeshifting, but without changing the mesh, so a benign-looking person may suddenly grow fangs and a fierce expression), shifting uniform colors and identifying marks, a mechanical AI with the appearance of spinning gears within its torso, or servomotors in its arms, etc.), color-changing in general. You know, faked greater physical detail. Taking the concept of animated textures and finding a way to create a similar visual effect on AI skins. Has anybody tried? Is it too doggone complex, time-consuming, and memory-consuming to make even one AI have that in a game? What all needs to be considered that I'm obviously unaware of? And what consumes more resources, highest polys and highest resolution AI, or last year's games' average AI polycount and 16 to 24-bit resolution textures that cycle to create a 4 to 8 frame animation? Yeah, I know, but I've been wondering what the hold-ups are, if it's not technology.

Imagine an AI that looks like every servant AI, only to find out, dramatically, that it's a disguise. Without the AI changing in shape or size, you witness a transformation in-game, instead of in a cutscene, and without a swapping of AI from a blue room. Or a classic movie/television device, knocking out, or killing an AI causes it to revert to its base appearance. An AI getting hit with a spell could become stone, or pale, or have some skin-hugging effect swirling over its surface. We could have AI with skin that crawls. We could have elemental beings with skin aflame, rippling wet, cracking when struck, or drifting like a cloud. Yes, I know, it's asking too much. But what are the technological barriers, as opposed to the business, or emotional barriers?

These are terrible examples, and I would hope more creativity and inventiveness would be utilised in a steampunk fantasy setting, but this shows the seed of what I'm talking about.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDjYqo-YVLc) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDjYqo-YVLc
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqfgzX4ErwQ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqfgzX4ErwQ

Flux on 21/4/2008 at 10:53

Very interesting points jtr7:D

Basically there are two types of game animation: vertex or skeletal. Vertex animation is used for objects like a flag waving. Skeletal is for ai. It's done either way. Though it depends on the number of keyframes you use, generally It won't add tons of stress to cpu or gpu but unless engine programmers design the import pipeline to merge both skeletal and vertex animation, there is no way to do it. If it supports both, you can have an ai patrolling(skeletal animation) and while doing so his face can change(vertex animation) like fangs growing or shapeshifting. I don't know any game engine that supports both out of the box without extra coding.

Actually the engine won't care if it is skeletal or vertex animation for the ai, it can be combined already. But most of the time they make 2-3 skeletal figure and rig them for the entire ai ensemble. This is just done for time saving purposes. A pagan and a keeper can use the same rig and same set of animations once you import them to the engine. Since their body shape is roughly similar, this won't be a problem. But if you want the pagan to have shapeshifting feautures, it has to be new set of rig and animations, require tons of extra work.

For attaching moving objects to ai, this can be done in a primitive way in tds. The problem of tds physics engine, is that they tried to chew a bite more than they could swallow(xbox limitations etc.) There are tons of interesting stuff to play around with, some works, some are too buggy to deal with.

As for animated skins, check the latest unreal engine. Its material modifiying capabilities is on par with 3dsmax or maya. Will developers use it to full extend, I don't know.

Briareos H on 21/4/2008 at 10:55

Quote Posted by jtr7

Happy Birthday, Briareos H!

Hey thanks a lot ! One step more towards the grumpy old man :D

Chade on 21/4/2008 at 13:27

Quote Posted by jtr7

I also like the older OMs forcing the player to carry over inventory items from one mission to another because there is no chance to see a fence or go to a store.

:weird:

Do you mean that the T1/2 OM's made you carry-over equipment from one mission into the next?

But you can't carry over equipment (nor money) ... and in fact, not only can't you hoard equipment (or money), but we actually know that this was a deliberate design decision, made to encourage the player to use their equipment (ie., made to encourage the player not to be frugal ...).

EDIT: Such a claim is all the better for evidence, I know, but it was an ancient interview, and I can't be bothered! :o

Gambit on 21/4/2008 at 13:47

I think buying clothes and food can be a bit of an overkill. Garrett uses a big piece of dark cloth and that´s all. He can buy food, no problem with that, so that it can work like a small healing potion, but making it a necessity with some "hunger stat" like in GTA4 would be... taking realism above the fun.

If there has to be an economy in the city then it could have:

- The tools of the trade (as always)
- Lockpicks for practice (as in TDS)

- Bribing (information, maps, getting less security at that front door, etc)
- Maybe make some tools better than others (a bow with longer range, but you have to buy it and it´s very expensive, or a sword that doesn´t shine just like Constantine´s)
- Transport (Horses, carriages) and tolls to access some areas
- Books (that have information about your target, lore books, faction books)
- A fee to participate in the Thief Guild if you wish (you can only use their expensive fences but they have a lot of safe houses and other advantages)

Gambit on 21/4/2008 at 13:51

Quote Posted by Chade

Yes, you restart your equipment with every new mission.

However there are some missions that happens immediately after the previous mission and therefore keeps you with the same inventory as before.

A good example would be the end of Trace the Courrier and the start of Trail of Blood. In the end of Courrier you enter a portal, and at the start of Trail of Blood you are at the other side of that portal. Obviously there was no fence in the portal limbo to sell you arrows, so you started with the tools you managed to keep

Henri The Hammer on 21/4/2008 at 13:55

I think different clothing could be good. They could work as disguises, ala Hitman.

And I finally want Garrett with a cloak! How hard is it to make clothing physics? I mean, just look at Assassin's Creed.

Unteroffizier on 21/4/2008 at 14:23

Have not been here much and for a while seeing this thread can anyone confirm there will be a Thief 4 with the same old steven as Garrett? I truly missed those wee hours in the night of my bedroom playing the cold mystical night missions with chilly ambient in the thief series and hearing that all too reviving musical tune played whenever a mission's completed!

New Horizon on 21/4/2008 at 14:39

Heh, the more I read this thread the more obvious it becomes that people don't want another Thief game, they just want what every other games does...but with the name Thief on it.