No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but... - by Flux
abdallah on 21/4/2008 at 16:14
^ Riiight. :tsktsk:
Renault on 21/4/2008 at 16:45
Quote Posted by Unteroffizier
can anyone confirm there will be a Thief 4 with the same old steven as Garrett?
Nothing is confirmed at all, at this point. Read the first two pages of the thread for some hints at what might be coming though.
jtr7 on 21/4/2008 at 16:51
Unteroffizier: We don't even know if there will be another Thief at all, so we cannot confirm a Thief 4, and therefore, we cannot confirm Stephen Russell, or Garrett.
Chade: I was referring to missions like Gambit has pointed out, which also includes Precious Cargo to Kidnap, and Return to the Haunted Cathedral to Escape. So yeah, the OMs forced the player to carry over equipment. No, not everytime.
Flux: Thanks!
New Horizon: So cynical!:D Again, speaking for myself and a few others: I want more Thief; however, any new game will NOT be kept simple, and will most likely use every techno-gimmick and whizz-bang, so any of my comments about new and future software/hardware are attempts to look for ways that new stuff may do the old stuff some justice when they surely compromise the Thief recipe. I don't consider your comments optimistic, by the way. Idealistic, perhaps, but often negative.
I've been railing against every idea that would GTA or WoW a new game, or apply Assassins Creed movements to the Thief Universe. Less commentary, please, and more ideas, even if you've said it a hundred times already. The Dark Mod team could contribute philisophical views here, just for the record, regardless of the fact that this thread doesn't mean squat at the end of the day, but let's be optimistic. Since this is a searchable forum, I suggest casting pearls before today's swine, so that someone less pig-headed tomorrow may find them. Just in case.
And I still get the distinct impression that people think TDM is a game, rather than tools to make Thiefy FMs.
Zillameth on 21/4/2008 at 17:38
People are just speculating about possible expansions to the core gameplay. I don't see anything wrong about that. I think some of those ideas would fit into the canon quite well.
I think most people are subconciously trying not to fall into that old "more of the same" trap. It would be an irony of epic proportions if the core fandom of one of the most creative FPP games of the last ten years refused to accept any creativity on part of (potential) authors of the next installment.
jtr - animated textures are easy to do when the surface they are put on is flat. They have been used for years for things like monitor displays and fire. Some basic 3D shapes, such as cubes and cylinders, shouldn't pose much of a problem, either. However, organic shapes are tricky, because UV maps become somewhat complicated.
Procedural animations (such as that glowing soldier) are feasible, and lots of things can be faked procedurally. On the other hand, covering a whole body with something similar to that lizard would require a lot of skill and time. A tattoo on a someone's relatively flat back is one thing, and a swarm of bugs crawling on the whole body is another. Without some heavy preprocessing, there would be visible artifacts on each edge of the 3D mesh. I'm not sure if this preprocessing could be automated.
There is also a matter of texture size. A film grows big fast, the longer it is, and you can't cut down on resolution, because then it would look very poorly when compared to other objects in game.
Facial expressions are made either by hand or through motion capture. There is a very impressive technology which converts camera image of an actor's facial motions into animated 3D mesh. It allows for an almost cinematic performance, but there is an obvious limitation, namely you can only capture what an actor can show. Hand made animations are difficult and time consuming to make, especially if they are meant to be "realistic". The technology has already ventured deep into the uncanny valley, I'm afraid.
There is a similar problem with any organic animation. You can have any human animation you like for as long as there is a stuntman who can perform it, or a physics enginge that can simulate it. The further you get from reality, the more needs to be done by hand, and this is just very expensive.
So, the short answer is: yes, those things can be done, mostly, but they will not be done without a very good reason.
UE3 has very good material system, but there are two problems with it:
- it's meant to support procedural effects,
- a shader cannot be too complex, or it will put too much strain on GPU.
jtr7 on 21/4/2008 at 17:48
Thanks!
Sad thing, I never noticed the lip-synching or the facial expressions in TDS, even though I new years in advance they were there. :(
Springheel on 21/4/2008 at 18:14
Quote:
When are we going to see animated skins like animated *.gif textures
This is already possible. D3 suppports animated textures and putting them on an animated character is no different than a static mesh. In fact, that's basically what the "burn away" effect is when you kill demons. We haven't used anything like that specifically in TDM (as Zillameth says, it does require some consideration of the uvmap), but the option is certainly there.
Quote:
shifting uniform colors and identifying marks, a mechanical AI with the appearance of spinning gears within its torso, or servomotors in its arms, etc.), color-changing in general.
These are all possible also, though shifting colours on the fly might require some scripting.
jtr7 on 21/4/2008 at 18:15
Thanks!:cool:
phide on 21/4/2008 at 18:25
Quote Posted by jtr7
The Dark Mod team could contribute philisophical views here, just for the record, regardless of the fact that this thread doesn't mean squat at the end of the day, but let's be optimistic.
I think the key issue here is optimism. Frankly, I believe a number of TDM team members joined the project because they may have felt that A) another sequel to the
Thief franchise would be disappointing to mission authors or B) that another sequel to the
Thief franchise would not be made. It seems that, in all likelihood, we're looking down the barrel of another
Thief title, and, and in all great likelihood, we're looking down the barrel of another
poor Thief title. That's simply the nature of the commercial game environment as it stands today.
What this has to do with TDM is really quite uncertain at this point.
Thief "4" may be the most impressive, most mod-friendly
Thief title ever released. It may also be the least impressive, least mod-friendly
Thief title ever released. I
personally don't care either way -- The Dark Mod isn't
Thief, is not intended to "replace" or "augment" the original games, and the goals are quite different (the goals are actually ideal). I won't speak for other team members, but, like I said, I don't really care what
Thief "4" brings to the table.
I've already stated that I think it's pretty much a certainty that a sequel in 2009 or 2010 will be radically different from the
Thief we've come to know and, for some of us, love. Major publishers want simple, kid-friendly, multi-platform titles that are marketable with widespread appeal and most developers are happy to oblige. A game that follows on the heels of
The Dark Project would almost certainly displease any major publisher in addition to displeasing the prime 14-year-old console-loving plebeians. To really "target" that critical plebeian market, you need gore, simple controls, fancy graphics and monotonous, repetitive gameplay backed by a childish, illogical backstory.
The Dark Project is the antithesis of that. What you need a gussied up
Deadly Shadows where you can backflip off walls and kill everything you see in excessively-gory detail -- and this is exactly what we're discussing (and what some seem to be
promoting).
To be blunt, if you're looking for TDM team members to post up optimistically-fueled ideas for a future
Thief title, I think you're sort of barking up the wrong tree (but this is in no way an official statement). I'm an optimist myself -- a pretty glass-half-full kind of guy -- but not about the current state of gaming, no sir.
Quote Posted by jtr7
And I still get the distinct impression that people think TDM is a game, rather than tools to make
Thiefy FMs.
No doubt.
jtr7 on 21/4/2008 at 18:50
I agree with your sentiments, and have stated them many times in a different voice, so I hope you aren't aiming those AT me, instead of springboarding off my comments.
Quote:
To be blunt, if you're looking for TDM team members to post up optimistically-fueled ideas for a future Thief title, I think you're sort of barking up the wrong tree (but this is in no way an official statement). I'm an optimist myself -- a pretty glass-half-full kind of guy -- but not about the current state of gaming, no sir.
Not what I'm looking for at all. I'm looking for constructive statements that could be scathingly negative or positive for the right reasons, informing, and informed. ;) I and others have said so much that agrees with the pessimistic view of the current state of gaming, that I have to believe posts aren't being read. So much has been stated in this thread against a bad
Thief 4, and so much hope for a good game (if there even will be one) in spite of all the inevitable compromises, that I have to believe posts aren't being read. Questions aren't being answered, so that leaves speculation. :erg:
And the negativity is being aimed at the people in this thread, not the gaming industry.:sly:
It angers me to see people ignoring what is clearly and repeatedly posted. When the Alpha Demo was released, how many frikkin' times did it have to be stated that it was a WIP? And here, NH can't see the true nature of this thread, and makes a useless comment that would make more sense in another context. I do agree with where he's coming from, if what was happening here was what he thinks is happening, but this is the wrong context.:sweat:
I'm asking the optimists (closet pessimists?) to make optimal posts, more than dismissive, and/or degrading, and/or pseudo-defeatist ones. Like I said, I agree with the motive, but not the act. Angry optimism is self-defeating without a display of reasoning. I'm a proud pessimist, and I'm having fun hoping for a decent game, pretending that it's possible, and making a wishlist mixed with purposeful absurdity for amusement. :weird:
phide on 21/4/2008 at 19:41
Maybe I've misunderstood you, but it seems you're looking for philosophical views, less commentary, more ideas and generally more optimism, right? I thought I covered the philosophy, at least as to how it pertains to The Dark Mod, but I don't have any real ideas for a supposed Thief 4. I have no 'ideas' because I feel like any sequel should take the ideas and concepts established in the first two games and simply bring them into the modern age (and I commented earlier that I'd rather see a die hard Thief: Anniversary type game than a sequel, because such a game could be both commercially successful while also keeping the fan base happy). That's ostensibly what The Dark Mod is all about -- evaluating what makes the existing games fun and sort of mimicking that -- so any potential excitement or interest in another Thief game is pretty much nulled to me.
I don't particularly want to think of new, gee-whiz gameplay mechanics that might make a potential Thief 4 more appealing, because that manner of thinking makes my stomach uneasy. In fact I'm not so sure I want to think of a new installment at all given the current climate of the industry. Ask me, I guess, and I'll tell you I think Thief is a chapter in gaming history that ought best remain closed.
And don't take my commentary the wrong way. I'm not targeting you or anyone else, just pouring out a few thoughts and concerns which I feel are relevant (pessimistic as they may be -- or perhaps just realistic) :cool:
