No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but...

New Horizon on 27/4/2008 at 23:52

Quote Posted by Zillameth

Sorry, but no banana. When you release the final version, then you're successful. Until then, you're just showing a good progress.

Difference of opinion. Some people refuse to acknowledge someone as successful if they wrote a book...they just go, "oh yeah, good for you", until they get published of course...then it's drool and cheers all the way. lol

I disagree with your 'final version theory. We've demonstrated that we could do what we set out to do...that's success. In the case of open source software like this, there will never be a 'final' version...that's the whole point of it.

jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 01:24

Stealing from another thread I posted in, continuing to follow my muse about a non-existent game, that may or may not be in our future, and for which my ideas don't truly matter :laff: :

I believe we were supposed to go along with the idea that the lightgem and compass are items Garrett carries, but they are obviously really part of the UI/HUD. In Escape! and A Keeper's Training it would've been nice if Garrett had to pick them up. Concept art in the manuals would've been good, too. Taking the concept of the TDS compass-plus-lightgem, he could wear them like a wristwatch, and keep his hands free. Or we could be told they are built into his mechanical eye, and the UI/HUD design could be made to reflect that.

Since his mechanical eye can receive aethereal waves and translate them, that could be developed further for a mission. An attack on his senses through aethereal broadcast (could be completely accidental and incidental, but another obstacle to avoid, while revealing vulnerability). Maybe a cutscene could show him removing the mechanical eye before a mission, and he has to do without its benefits.

Mirrors: Someday, mirrors won't be a problem to implement.

Non-bipedal AI: Someday, years from now, someone will figure out how to implement the CobraBeasts. The tail follows the previously described path of the anterior portion. No tail lashing attack, please, but venom spitting, for sure.

phide on 28/4/2008 at 02:46

Quote Posted by jtr7

Taking the concept of the TDS compass-plus-lightgem, he could wear them like a wristwatch, and keep his hands free. Or we could be told they are built into his mechanical eye, and the UI/HUD design could be made to reflect that.

Interesting idea, but I've never really been one for making the HUD look like it's actually anything but a very basic overlay. Crysis managed fairly well in this respect (but it' still at its core just like any other HUD in any other game). It could be explored, but how would one integrate a lightgem as if it were part or function of the mechanical eye? I'm not sure I could think of a way if I really sat on it for a bit, though I'm admittedly not a designer.

I generally consider the HUD to be a necessary interaction mechanic more than it is a function of the game or a function of gameplay. It exists on an entirely different layer than the game itself and I accept that without really requiring it to be explained. Looking Glass took it a step further by giving you the impression that the lightgem is this actual thing that Garrett walks around with, but I never thought it was necessary for them to do that. It's an indicator much the same way as the health meter is in Doom, just represented visually -- dark to light -- as opposed to numerically -- 0 to 100.

Quote Posted by jtr7

Mirrors: Someday, mirrors won't be a problem to implement.

Mirrors as in "I see myself" mirrors? I think Duke Nukem 3D was the first game to support rudimentary mirrors back in 1996. Oddly enough, it actually duplicated geometry and entities at run time, so you had to actually build a room behind it equal to or larger than the size of the area that could be reflected. Sort of amusing when you think about it.

Modern moving mirrors are possible with pixel shaders and render-to-texture techniques. See Portal. They're intensive and require caution in their use, but they're certainly viable these days. Portal actually mimics the "infinite reflection" effect with basically zero impact on performance too.

jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 02:57

Thanks! As for the eye HUD, I'm thinking more of the assumption that the player is viewing the world through both of Garrett's eyes, except when a special mechanical function (zoom) is used. TDS kinda changed that by making specific use of the mechanical eye more obvious, grainy, washed out, and humming. I appreciate that it doesn't receive light and send the signal to the brain the same as his flesh eye, but it was okay the way it was, too.

I'm also thinking along the lines of a canon explanation for the HUD items, as a part of Garrett's experience, rather than player tools. It would still be an overlay, that wouldn't change, but aesthetically, it would be deisgned to seem as an overlay on his artificial surrogate retina, and show Mechanist genius, grudgingly admired, but very useful. It could also allow a canon explanation and option for turning off the display.

Chade on 28/4/2008 at 12:37

The trouble with a fictionalized HUD is that steam-punk technology is not sleek and streamlined. You can't copy Crysis with thief tech. It is clunky by nature.

I think as far as thief goes it is best just to keep the HUD as simple and no-nonsense as possible (within the artistic style of thief), and avoid the whole issue. I think trying to get the player to buy a fictional explanation for the HUD would just end up drawing their attention to the whole illogical concept and make things worse.

jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 14:47

Hmmm. I can see your point, but I think you're reading too much into it. "Within the artistic style of Thief", yes. Sleek and streamlined? Crysis? No. TDS pushed it farther than I want to go. I want it pulled back, and more along the lines of what the end cutscene of TDP/Gold, and the cutscene in TMA already showed. The screwdriver, the blueprints, the oil, the blueprints. Also, the aethereal waves that the scouting orb used to send a signal to the eye. I had no problems with these concepts. I only had issue with the scouting orb once I learned how to play the game (TMA being the first Thief game I played). Within the artistic style of Thief, steampunk, using already established -isms. Not even making a bold point of it. Subtlety, man.

Springheel on 28/4/2008 at 15:05

Quote:

Looking Glass took it a step further by giving you the impression that the lightgem is this actual thing that Garrett walks around with,

Are you serious? That sounds like one of the dumber things I've heard of, if true. Where did people get this impression?

Renault on 28/4/2008 at 15:15

That's retarded, and I'm guessing completely untrue.

jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 15:21

And what impression are you trying to make, Springheel?:tsktsk:

Look at the clues given by the manuals, helpful hints, design choice in relation to the other HUD items, and the context of how information about the visibility/light gem is given, and give me your impression from those, instead. Then I'll give a damn about your disagreement.

I mean, I love it when people call me out on mistakes--it means they are paying attention to the material--but the delivery could be more constructive and informative.

Gambit on 28/4/2008 at 16:11

If I remember TDP well... in the Training Mission your teacher does mention that you have a light gem.