No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but... - by Flux
Shadak on 28/4/2008 at 16:13
I never got that impression. I don't remember any hints toward the light gem being a real thing. In fact, I think that doesn't fit at all. I seriously doubt Keeper training includes a little trinket to tell you if you are in enough shadow. On the contrary, the Keeper training is all about honing your senses and seamlessly blending with the environment through skill and instinct. The light gem is just a visual representation of that for us players.
jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 16:21
Thanks, Gambit and Shadak. Both correct, though Shadak is also making fanon.
Here's your best argument against me right here:
"You must learn how to move unseen. Stay in the shadows...avoid the light. The indicator on your screen will tell you how visible you are. Try to reach the top of the platform without being seen."
A Keeper, who's training you, breaks the third wall by speaking about the screen and doesn't use the term "gem" at all.
But why a rough gem, set in hand-worked metal, when there are health shields and inventory displays that are glaringly not part of the virtual world, along with a festive "cheese block" compass?
Personal interpretations. We feel our personal fanon explanations are the most valid. So if I'm going to be called out for having an impression, canon should be used, not fanon, or the fact that it's subjective, instead of committing the same offense in retaliation. :laff:
Renault on 28/4/2008 at 16:27
Quote Posted by jtr7
I mean, I love it when people call me out on mistakes--it means they are paying attention to the material--but the delivery could be more constructive and informative.
He was actually quoting (and referring) to the comment by Phide, as was I.
phide on 28/4/2008 at 16:32
Quote Posted by Springheel
Are you serious? That sounds like one of the dumber things I've heard of, if true. Where did people get this impression?
It's a light
gem, no? It's designed to look like a gemstone -- and gemstones are real, tangible things. The health indicator, for instance, wasn't a "health stone" or anything, and it's plainly obvious LG had no intention to make it seem as if it were any kind of tangible element, only a purely-informative overlay. It's essentially just a numeric display, not unlike the "health meter" in Doom, Quake or what have you, only represented slightly differently.
The light gem, on the other hand,
doesn't rely on any numeric display, only on the visual representation of the amount of light being cast on Garrett (or, more purely, the reaction of the light gem to the amount of light being cast on Garrett). It's akin to the sword, the blackjack, arrows, flashbombs and the compass -- they're visual indicators of what Garrett has equipped or what is on his person.
There's no practical reason why he'd have to walk around with such a thing, of course, but if LG didn't want the light gem to seem like a part of the game world rather than solely part of the HUD, they could've just as easily used some sort of "light meter", like a VU/decibel meter or some such, or a signal meter like we see on cell phones with the number of bars corresponding to the amount of light (again, a numeric representation). They didn't.
I thought Deadly Shadows sort of fucked up that image in a way by merging the light gem with the "stone compass", but the distinction between the HUD elements with respect to their connection to the game world (or lack thereof) was quite obvious in the first two games.
Goldmoon Dawn on 28/4/2008 at 16:33
Quote Posted by Springheel
Are you serious? That sounds like one of the dumber things I've heard of, if true. Where did people get this impression?
Quote Posted by Brethren
That's retarded, and I'm guessing completely untrue.
Sorry jtr, but I must side with this. Look, the truth is, you can study a subject until you know it inside and out. Until you experience the subject first hand for but a moment, you truly don't understand it. Having said that, some things in Thief *cannot* be precisely defined. This is one of them. The hardcores win this argument as the light gem is one of those suspension of disbelief things required to play fantasy video games. A true thief knows that the gem is just the way the player himself knows when Garrett is invisible, see?
Garrett already knows when he is invisible because of his KEEPER'S TRAINING. He doesn't need the gem that us feeble players need. :)
R Soul on 28/4/2008 at 16:41
I also agree with the 'visual representation' idea, which I also think should apply to the compass and health shields.
And things he's carrying don't really spin round do they?
You can go on about canon and fanon and shanon but unless there's a concrete explanation, just go with the simplest explanation.
jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 16:42
Thank you, Goldmoon Dawn, for not using playground insults, hypocrisy, and hyperbole in a sad attempt to correct me.:thumb: As you can see, I've accepted the counter-argument above.:angel:
R Soul: Sure! But I like explanations for things that are always before my eyes. And I still think my idea's being taken well out of proportion. :p
Goldmoon Dawn on 28/4/2008 at 16:43
No problem jtr. :) I try to imagine Garrett looking down every two seconds to check his gem to see if he is hidden. Maybe in Deadly Shadows the gem was like a wristwatch or something, but not in Dark Project and, um, and part II. :ebil:
Renault on 28/4/2008 at 16:44
Quote Posted by phide
It's akin to the sword, the blackjack, arrows, flashbombs and the compass -- they're visual indicators of what Garrett has equipped or what is on his person.
Right, but those things needed to be selected by the player to be used, which to me indicates they are items he carries. The "light gem" is a permanent part of the interface, just like the health shields.
phide on 28/4/2008 at 16:48
Quote Posted by Shadak
I seriously doubt Keeper training includes a little trinket to tell you if you are in enough shadow...The light gem is just a visual representation of that for us players.
Yes, it's a necessary indicator (or at least an extremely valuable one if not entirely necessary), but the way it's represented visually is different from other "purely informative" indicators. I think it's most like the compass, which is very much designed to look like a real compass in the first two games. The Thief HUD is kind of a hybrid: there are textual and numeric overlays (health meter, number of arrows, type of item, etc.) in addition to approximations and representations of "real" objects (weapon models, item models, compass and -- though this is debatable -- the light gem).
The health meter relays data in a numeric form. The compass relays data in a fuzzier visual form. The light gem relays data to the player in the same way as the compass.
Quote Posted by Gambit
If I remember TDP well... in the Training Mission your teacher does mention that you have a light gem.
I think it was referred to as "the light gem", though I may be mistaken. If "a light gem" was used, it might give credence to the argument that the light gem is an actual object -- something that one can have more than one of, for instance, as opposed to a fabricated concept made purely for the sake of communicating the aspects of the game world to the player.
You might be right, though. It's been a while since I've played through the training.
Quote Posted by Brethren
Right, but those things needed to be selected by the player to be used, which to me indicates they are items he carries. The "light gem" is a permanent part of the interface, just like the health shields.
True. There are probably as many appreciable differences as there are similarities.
