No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but... - by Flux
Shadak on 28/4/2008 at 16:48
The canon evidence seems to point to light gem not being a real thing. I even just read the light gem sections in all three Thief game manuals and the hint guides, which all are pretty much the same, talking about an indicator on the screen and nothing more.
The only thing that supposedly points to it being real is the art design of it. LGS made it stylish and cool rather than boring and straightforward like the compass and health shields. Why?
Because the light gem is so central to Thief, a new thing not in any other FPS. Health meter and compass are common to many games, nothing new there, but a light gem for sneakiness set in a steampunk/fantasy world? It's the most important and central HUD element, and the only thing that would always be on the screen no matter what. That needed special attention, so they designed it to fit the environment, to look cool, to not spoil the Thief mood or style. But none of that means it's real.
Also, it's a visibility gem, not just a light gem. A trinket that measured only light exposure would not know whether Garrett is moving fast or slow or not at all or whether he has a sword drawn. But Garrett knows all this in his mind, and the light gem helps us players connect with his expert Keeper training.
jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 16:59
Thanks again, GMD. I haven't forgotten this thread is about a possible Thief 4 and that it may be Thief Modern, so expect these kinds of ideas. Extrapolation isn't unreasonable when conceiving a novel, a movie, or a game that can take advantage of mostly-advanced technology, to tell a richer story, provide a richer world, etc. As a pessimist, I continue to be amazed at the hatred in spite of myself.
People do realise this has not a thing to do with the ETU, right? The vast majority of things I say in these threads are wholly outside that project.
Shadak: Thanks! Good stuff there!
Renault on 28/4/2008 at 16:59
Quote Posted by Shadak
Also, it's a visibility gem, not just a light gem. A trinket that measured only light exposure would not know whether Garrett is moving fast or slow or not at all or whether he has a sword drawn. But Garrett knows all this in his mind, and the light gem helps us players connect with his expert Keeper training.
Great points there. Btw, never have figured out what those mini indicators within the light gem do, are they for movement?
jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 17:22
Phide: Thanks! I think you missed this:
(
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1727624#post1727624) http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1727624#post1727624
Yeah. The games refer to it as indicator, light gem, and visibility gem. And no, I don't imagine Garrett looks at it all the time, peeps. There are those times, playing the game, when you couldn't really tell without looking at it. Most of the time, the light gem's not necessary once you get the hang of it. The fact that it's always on the screen, and even combined with the compass in TDS, are how I could make the leap to having it in his fluid-filled mechanical eye (this would discount TDP/Gold, though, but I'm thinking of the sequel, and things have already been messed with, and I fully expect another game would mess with established ideas even more). I imagine the tiny compass floating in the oil at just within the artificial fovea, like the fround floating compasses today, but without the jiggling. The markings are tiny dots of phosphorous, like the old watches, but never fading out, unless it could be re-excited by passing through a lit area, which could be a subtle warning to the player. The light-shroom green glow would be small yet muzzy, and legible enough. A ring surrounding the compass set inside the eye is the light indicator. It's part of what holds the compass in place.
Brethren's quote in your post.:thumb:
phide on 28/4/2008 at 17:43
I posted after your edit, I think (from what I can tell anyway).
It might be interesting for the sequel to implement the light gem in such a way that it
is a real element, but there would be some hefty challenges there. I think of the original games as only projecting a representation of the actual gem, just as the spinning weapon icons are projections of the drawn weapon. A potential sequel could implement the light gem and compass in such a way, artistically, that they seem part of the mechanical eye, but the potential for it to look gimmicky as hell is probably pretty high (assuming the character we'll be playing has a mechanical eye at all).
I expect more of the same for the next game, which doesn't bother me. I don't want to see any developer taking a
Trespasser approach to relaying information to the player, but there's room for a little innovation. Of course, the innovation is will probably go solely to ensuring that console-loving plebeians can understand the HUD without killing too terribly many brain cells instead of actually trying something interesting, but that's to be expected.
jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 17:45
:thumb:
Oh, and I didn't mean to suggest you made a mistake, but that you must've missed my post when we were all typing our posts almost simultaneously. :laff:
I'll emphasise again, subtlety, grounded in the familiar, so it's barely noticed when it's not needed. The backstory for it needn't be spelled out. A single line in the manual, or help tips, etc., is all it would take for any expository canon to be established. If we had a need to see Garrett doing maintenance on the eye again (we don't), a cutscene or briefing image could show the inside of the eye, revealing some of the inner workings. Anyway, Keep it cool and somewhat dim, and even gently translucent (since Garrett uses both eyes, borrowing the from the idea that the images are imposed upon each other would cut the intensity). Maybe done right, even less people would look for a way to remove the intrusive HUD. I think the gimmicky quality would be greatly reduced if it wasn't a loud feature, hard to ignore, but easily forgotten (in a good way), or merely subconscious, so only when the player questions the visibility factor, does the HUD get any attention.
Renault on 28/4/2008 at 18:22
Quote Posted by phide
It might be interesting for the sequel to implement the light gem in such a way that it
is a real element, but there would be some hefty challenges there.
Why though? Whether the main character of T4 is Garrett or someone else, it seems to be a much cooler idea that the protagonist is a master of their trade and that they don't need some gizmo or gadget to assist their "stealthiness." It's such a primary part of the game, it seems distracting to have the player constantly checking some gem, when (hopefully) something interesting is going on around them. I think this is definitely a case of leave well enough alone.
phide on 28/4/2008 at 18:41
Quote Posted by Brethren
It's such a primary part of the game, it seems distracting to have the player constantly checking some gem, when (hopefully) something interesting is going on around them.
Well, the light gem is a tool, just like any other, and its presence doesn't necessarily dictate its use. Having it appear as a real element in the HUD -- perhaps suspended in the mechanical eye's internal gelatinous goop and always visible -- as opposed to an informational element wouldn't necessarily impact gameplay at all. Its usage and purpose would be no different than it is in any prior
Thief game, just portrayed in a different way.
Renault on 28/4/2008 at 19:00
Quote Posted by phide
Well, the light gem is a tool
I guess I just don't see it that way, I see it more as an ability that is learned or trained. I know it's not "official" but T2X is a good example of this. Zaya doesn't have a light gem in the first mission, because she hasn't been trained by Malak yet. After she's been properly trained, the light gem appears for the rest of the game.
jtr7 on 28/4/2008 at 19:05
You got it, Phide! The purpose is effectively the same on all but that one count, yes! \o/
By taking advantage of the established steampunk style, and anachronistic amalgam of the Thief Universe, the HUD can become more a part of that world, not just a bold a reminder of the real world that takes away from immersion. It's a psychological shift, a virtual reality excuse for a real world gaming tool. Subtlety. An attempt to downplay having to read subtitles in a movie, just a little bit. An attempt to create the illusion that the HUD is not an overlay (though we know it is). The awareness of the overlay makes us realise we are only viewing that world through a screen.
