No, not another "will there be thief4" thread, but... - by Flux
jtr7 on 5/4/2008 at 10:00
To Subjective Effect: :thumb:
To Forge of Michael:
Well, be grateful you missed many of the first couple hundred threads in the BioShock General Discussion forum after it was released, then. :sweat: The game was marketed to sell big, and a huge percentage of the players were pleased. The statistics don't give insight into all the thousands of players who were disappointed for many reasons, some very common reasons, and some individual. Quite a few of us here will never be happy with a game made to sell big, because it means something great will be compromised for those that don't care, or don't see, but are willing to shell out the dough for more flash and bang and death with a twist.
van HellSing on 5/4/2008 at 10:08
To Forge of Michael:
lurk moar
Briareos H on 5/4/2008 at 10:10
Mark my words, Digi you're talking from your arse.
TDS and IW were completely limited by engine development and level size restraints. That alone would have made the games vastly different. Also, the trend to dumb everything down is starting to see its backlash (from a publisher perspective) right now.
(Oh, and you'll see that people complained about Bioshock sucking as a game, not as a *shock title)
Forge Of Michael on 5/4/2008 at 10:11
Quote Posted by jtr7
To Subjective Effect: :thumb:
To Forge of Michael:
Well, be grateful you missed the first hundred threads in the BioShock General Discussion forum, then. :sweat: The game was marketed to sell big, and a huge percentage of the players were pleased. The statistics don't give insight into all the thousands of players who were disappointed for many reasons, some very common reasons, and some individual. Quite a few of us here will never be happy with a game made to sell big, because it means something great will be compromised for those that don't care, or don't see, but are willing to shell out the dough for more flash and bang and death with a twist.
I posted on 2K Forums for weeks before it was released, and I saw the complainers. So what you're saying is, you don't care what the game is, if it's too commercialized, you won't buy it? It seems to me that you're going out of your way to form a niche market for yourself. Apparently, these people always want a game to be identical or very similar to a formula that has been proven to work in the past. People seem to be scared of a change to that system. It wasn't enough like SS2? Maybe not, maybe compromises were made. It still made for a fantastic game, but why pick out these compromises and make like the game's a complete mess? I'd understand if the game had failed, but BioShock didn't. What
did you expect?:confused:
van HellSing on 5/4/2008 at 10:13
The game is a complete mess, not just because it's not SS2 enough. Please read some threads in the Bioshock forum.
Forge Of Michael on 5/4/2008 at 10:19
Quote Posted by van HellSing
The game
is a complete mess, not just because it's not SS2 enough. Please read some threads in the Bioshock forum.
So, it didn't do
anything right? Nothing at all? That makes sense.
van HellSing on 5/4/2008 at 10:39
The setting, the sounds and music. About the only things BS did right.
jtr7 on 5/4/2008 at 11:05
Quote:
So what you're saying is, you don't care what the game is, if it's too commercialized, you won't buy it?
I didn't say that, no. You were too quick to go
there.
I won't buy a game that's more of the same disguised as something else. I won't buy a game to keep up with popular trends. I won't buy a game until I learn more about it from gamers, and especially gamers I respect whose opinions I trust because I tend to agree with their assessment.
Quote:
It seems to me that you're going out of your way to form a niche market for yourself.
I AM a niche market,
Thief (my fave) IS a niche market, there's no effort or going out of my way at all.
Thief came along by happy chance, and I was in place to play it, and I was hooked, and it sold decently enough overall, but it's pretty much a cult favorite. I haven't played SS, SS2, or BS. And I'm not really a gamer. But I think my points are relevant to this debate.
Quote:
Apparently, these people always want a game to be identical or very similar to a formula that has been proven to work in the past. People seem to be scared of a change to that system.
It should seem like a natural growth, and core concepts that are well-liked should never be compromised if the game company is going to use the known title and say it IS the same formula.
I will say this emphatically, speaking for myself:
I like change that means positive growth.
I like change that makes sense, such as an increase in technological capability.
I like change that isn't built around a gimmick.
I like change that isn't smoke and mirrors. Don't be so quick to lump anybody into that despised category. It's a cheap shot.
Quote:
I'd understand if the game had failed, but BioShock didn't. What did you expect?
Again, this use of mass-market statistics is NO measure of personal satisfaction across the various demographics, and certainly not how
we fit in there. Not only that, but do those numbers account for those that bought it for someone else? Bought more than one copy? Sold copies on ebay or in the classifieds without ever playing it? The point being that there are a multitude of factors, including different personalities, tastes, expectations, and levels of satisfaction. What we're speaking from is the shared community experience--people talking about the games with each other--not sales figures.
What was expected was what the gaming community was TOLD to expect. Apparently it was inaccurate. Now pay attention here, this is critical: There are many who
love the game but hate the problems they've listed, hate feeling lied to, hate the fact that they can't trust the gaming companies' marketing campaigns, hate the apparent fact that the game designers missed the point of why they liked some things in the earlier games. Connecting a new game to an earlier beloved title creates expectation. That expectation was not met for many gamers. Severing that connection and just seeing the game for what it is, and nothing more, removes the distortion that comes from that romanticised expectation. The game can be loved by those who hate that distortion.
Complaining is a way of trying to correct, rebuke, or punish the entities that share a major part of the blame for creating a false expectation to boost sales. Complaining is also an attempt to get the companies to change how they'll make the next game for the better--it is hoped. You will find that anybody praising a game will usually have a short list, while those who are disappointed will have pages of detailed explanations so anyone reading it might better understand why those things are unwanted. It's
usually not the evil it's made out to be. If no one complained, some negative things would never be changed for the better, and positive change is welcome.
Forge Of Michael on 5/4/2008 at 11:33
Quote Posted by jtr7
I won't buy a game that's...
I agree with everything you said here; I don't buy games unless I know for sure that it's good. All I'm saying is that you're being a little extreme when you and HellSing say that there's nothing to like with BioShock. Surely that's not the case? I think that perhaps you were expecting a little too much.
Quote Posted by jtr7
I AM a niche market,
Thief (my fave) IS a niche market, there's no effort or going out of my way at all.
That is true, Thief is my favourite series too. I'm only going on some observatons that I've made when using this forum, and others. I've noticed that gamers, generally older gamers who see themselves as champions of a widely-forgotten series, often take it upon themselves to defend their games beyond the point of reason, stating that
nothing should be changed, demanding this and that. Sometimes developers have to think about what will sell games, as opposed to what will please a small demographic of long-time fans.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Don't be so quick to lump anybody into that despised category. It's a cheap shot.
For that, I apologise.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Severing that connection and just seeing the game for what it is, and nothing more, removes the distortion that comes from that romanticised expectation.
In all truth, I have never played SS2, or other games that people were hoping BioShock would live up to the legacy of. I thought that it was a very deep, atmospheric game, and I don't see why so many are so quick to put it down, just because it wasn't precisely what they expected.
Don't you think that if BioShock had not been touted as a "successor" to anything, had no connection to any other old franchises, and was without the "Shock" suffix, it would have been more appreciated across the board?cacka on 5/4/2008 at 11:40
Is that shot a concept or in game? It's just I can see jaggies on it, not something you normally get with concept art.
