Moshuku on 13/6/2008 at 16:27
I don't like forums. They drag me in ;) But then again I've loved Thief ever since playing the demo for Bafford's. I think TDS was good, but missed when compared to the first two games (except for Shalebridge - utterly brilliant!).
Second post on this forum and it's going to be long winded but you can always skip it... sorry :) So, in no particluar order, here comments on other peoples ideas (and maybe a few of my own) :
There was discussion on the reality of the light gem and intrusiveness into the game. At a basic level, that's the sort of thing that should be a HUD toggle, surely (think Deus Ex - you could pick what you want shown)? I'd suggest the compass being an item that pops up - in a a hand + arm animation - just like weapons do. TDS had it as a selectable item anyway rather than permanently on. Getting rid of those incredibly bright health shields - you had to play on expert just to reduce the glare ;) - would be good for me. (Incidentally, I had to check the history of the red cross after this: see (
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/emblem-history) and check Wikipedia too. Only 19th century!) I suggest your health status being shown in a very rough way by border colour (all four sides); borders are completely normal to the edge if you're healthy, gradually misting to red as you end up hurt. You never know exactly how healthy you are, which I like. Also, the borders (or border if you want directional info) can flash white when you are hurt. Yes it gets distracting when you're hurt, but that's what being hurt does. I quite like the idea of damage reducing your abilities too and maybe the colour of each border can give you an idea of where you're abilities are reduced (legs below, arm(s) to the side, head above, body - the whole lot).
I always saw the light gem as something to help the player understand Garrett's interpretation of his visibility (i.e. raw skill) rather than an object in the game world, but even if it was an object, I can't envisage something (without your mechanist eye) that would be natural, or at least convenient if you wanted to apply the compass mechanic I suggested above. Personally, I'm happy with a light 'gem' (or whatever) that is a non-distracting black when you're in shadows. And if you can toggle it on or off like I suggested above...
Big cities: I thought it would be cool, but now I think mission design will suffer because of it. To get the varied and cool missions you get in Thief, I don't think you want to generate too massive a living city. I liked what TDS tried to do, but level size limitations (engine technology and computer capability) meant it just didn't really work. And it was way too busy for night! The idea of your actions having consequences (think continually robbing your building night after night) was in there, but I think it should have had more influence. Places should become no go (for you) due to much more numerous and suspicious law enforcement, even deserted.
Equipment cost: Ah, always a bit rum. I could retire on the gas arrows I had left from a mission ;) Before TDS, I thought reducing your take from the mission in proportion to the difficulty level might you might at least be able to make equipment costs believeable (e.g. left with (loot - required take) * 10%; equipment costs 10%). I'm not a big fan of making Merchant: the rip-off project, so I'd be quite happy to let that happen automatically at the end of a job. Obviously an idea like this needs some working at for hub like environments. Would Garrett give charitable donations to an orphange (by sneaking into the building and breaking into their safe)?
Talking of living: time. Ever played the stealth ops in Operation Flashpoint? Having a realistic restriction on the clock as the night fades away really added something, I thought. I'm a really methodical slow player, but I would like that challenge. Also, I want KOs to wake up - maybe you have to do some trussing and gagging too? A bit of a pain, I know but it again puts a little more pressure on you to do the job. Even if we haven't got a (complete) living city, I'd like time constraints - due to reasonable factors not 'you have 2 minutes to get through this section' - to factor in at least some of the missions. Maybe that's an optional factor: I admit it's probably a lot of extra work (I'm no game designer) for something that not everybody wants, but optional realism settings are not without precident (think of optional moral effects in battles for the Total War series). Perhaps it could depend on difficulty?
New plots/missions. Suggestions made and that I like include: the Hand Brotherhood (IIRC; I'm on about the magicians from TG); great potential in a completely new (Middle East) steam punk environment there. More Downwind TG troubles. A ship adventure that ends up with you in an underwater city on a Super Breath Potion (yes, Garrett can swim again), for an interesting 3-D level. Without Garrett (possibly Artemis or other keepers dependant upon chronolgy) there are plenty of other interesting, possibly doom laden, histories to play back: The fall of the Cathedral and Old Quater, the Lost City before it's lost... that sort of thing. The inspector fllow from TDS: maybe you could do an investigative mission (the whole spy thing again) with him (was he part of a group?) as the catalyst.
Garrett or not Garrett: I would be OK with it being someone else; the girl's obvious for a next gen thing. However, Garrett would HAVE to feature (except for thios historical missions, obviously). It would be great to do a mission with Garrett along for the ride (maybe your test?) Half the time you wouldn't know he was there till you hear a smart arse comment beside the dissapearing expensive wines.
Multiplayer sounds interesting (again I wonder at the expense of what other game aspects). I really should try SCCT to see what they do (it'll be no surprise that the 3rd person put me off :)). Saving sounds like it could work in coop (one party initiates, the other agrees), but it really couldn't work in competitive, could it? Respawning just sounds intrusive so here are some other ideas: Being shoved off to prison (AKA a guard post; perhaps one of several to stop camping behaviour) if 'captured' by a guard is a little less intrusive; no deliberate Thief-on-Thief casualties allowed as a game setting; deaths from other causes (falling, falling from shoving, etc) could result in the body having to be healed again - maybe at a Hammerite (or Pagan) shrine. Have a mod called 'Zombie Thief' - participants checked for holy water at the door. At least a Zombie Thief would explain (who said this one? I laughed!) the octaginarian monkey that's Garrett. A rooftop race still sounds cool. Perhaps the trick would be to force sneaking sections due to it being just too plain dangerous to get past alerted guards. Burrick racing: If we can reduce the gas velocity to zero again (the bugs tour in TG?), there will be interesting 'oil slick' tactics to loose those behind. I'm kidding, OK?
Role playing (i.e. 'character' development). I don't think it would work with Garrett - he's already the best. If you're playing someone else, then it might work: perhaps you could, even if it's scripted (i.e. after a mission or two or at certain key points) get an ability and maybe you get to choose. To be honest, it would work in a very similar way to the lockpicks in TDP. The ability may be improved sneak, hide, detection (think Keeper spotting and the like), pick pockets, pick locks, even ancient languages or the unusual choice of burrick handling. Whichever one you pick will bring you up to a level simlar to Garrett's (or better if it's burrick handling!) Development makes sense for a learner but they really shouldn't ever get as good as Garrett (at sneaking). For me, developing the Thief isn't really critical to the Thief experience.
Kit: Climbing gloves are OK, I prefered rope arrows too (I felt you could be more inventive with them). It's probably quite a meaningless mod, but - when playing on expert - I always had hordes of broadheads left over (even after using them to test potential rope arrow holds). I thought it might be cool if I could only make elemental arrows by combining the crystal and a broadhead. You might ave to prep them before hand too. Still, this idea might penalise lower difficulty players a little too much... well, perhaps it's an Expert only requirement?
Who said sunglasses? That's a fun idea (which can be incorporated into helmets too) and certainly isn't a chronological problem for a steam punk world. Obviously, they'd have to take them off once they're after you in a dark place and then...
Similarly, some in game automatic gama adjustment would be nice: Gradually increase the gamma as you keep looking a dark things, then white out (with rapid gamma decrease) when you look at a light area (especially the source). Could be extra compicated for guards with mobile light sources, but might give guards in general a chance once they've been looking for you for a bit.
I would like to see electirc lights going out with a fizz and a bang when wet. Yeah, water crystals are pure water, but surely there're enough impurities around to casue some shorting? If the arrow was a combo (with a BH) anyway, well rust particles would be mixed in. Maybe it would fizz and there's a nominal 1 in 3 chance of actually getting the light to blow?
Potions: I wasn't too happy with slow fall or invisibility. Sure they're useful but they felt a little too... out of character for the game world. (Think of the market they would generate?!) Speed can kinda double up for slow fall (reduce the damage at least) and invisibility should be VERY rare. Perhaps a more minor camoflage potion would seem less incongruous (to me) or invisibility shouldn't be perfect (maybe it isn't - I never really used the potion except on the docks mission in TMA). I'm OK with healing potions; that's just a case of balance which was about right for me. (I can't do a 'get all the loot and don't save in a mission on Expert' for quite a few levels; generally the ones where I fall. A lot.) I'll touch on speed potions again in a bit.
A cross bow (or mini crossbow): I like that one (providing it's not for Garrett!!!). To be honest, it's more in keeping with the whole low-profile Thief thing. Sleeping poison on the darts would make things quite easy, wouldn't it? Well perhaps it'd have delayed affect causing all sorts of ruckus in the mean time (we remember Deus Ex - uh... uh... uh... uh... ooeeeeeerrrgh), and maybe you'd have to hit unarmoured spots as it is a particularly small cross bow with a particularly little power.
Bringing me on to: climbing. I want improved abilities (drain pipes, limited wall, reliable mantling, hanging) but nothing unrealistic (it's part of the gritty feel to the game). That said, maybe dowing a speed potion could let you do your wall running etc. People have mentioned the AI doing the same, or even better (spiders): Yes please!!! We really need to add to the danger of being chased - vertical chases would help big time! (But imagine chopping or cutting your rope arrow as someone or thing is shinning/scuttling up behind you.)
In a similar vein, (and as has been said) it would also be cool to bring back crawling (remember System Shock?) Very slow, true, but also very Thiefy. You could have crawl spaces only big enough to crawl in!
Well this one's obvious and no doubt already part of the development: AI that responds really well to troubles you cause (getting suspicious and calling allies, maintaining a certain level of suspiciousness after significant events). As mentioned above, they can climb, crouch, etc (but it obviously depends on the creature type).
Lastly (I somewhat suspect this one's come before but hey), I want to propose a new specialist peace of gear for the professional thief: it is the 'wet blanket'. Can you guess what it's for? And you only need a puddle to 'renew' it. Caution: Not suitable for use on electric lights without precautions.
There are plenty of other fun ideas out there (e.g. other elementals) but I've gone on for way, way, way too long anyway. At least you can ignore this post.
Cheers!
