Sulphur on 20/11/2019 at 09:01
To be clear, 'entertaining' isn't meant as a disparaging term. It takes talent to craft entertaining experiences beyond just authorial quality, and there's nothing wrong with a genre potboiler approach. Some of my most treasured experiences belong to the realm of genre fiction.
But If we're looking only at the singular quality of the writing in isolation, I think it's immediately apparent there's rarely the sort of depth in the VNs we've named that you could get in IF that's laser-focused on character like, say, Rameses (obscure reference, I know). Even Stein;s Gate imbues Okarin, its protagonist, with a massively twee characteristic like chuunibyou. This is pivotal to the narrative but also aimed squarely at the YA crowd who can relate to it and be entertained. Not a bad thing, again, but it saps the story of depth it could have otherwise developed.
SubJeff on 20/11/2019 at 09:25
I'm finally playing PS4 Spiderman and having to unlearn the God of War controls and learn these.
It's quite fun so far, but I'd like a combat VR mode to practice my new moves in. Swinging is quite good but I'm far from mastering it. I might just seek out crimes and backpacks for a bit until I'm more adept.
Question: why is some of the city blank on the map? It's like I'm in the sea or something.
Sulphur on 20/11/2019 at 09:42
You've got to bring the surveillance towers back online for that. It's the one thing they borrowed from AssCreed that's still not particularly fun, but at least it's an interesting nod to what 'normal' looks like in the abstract. There's no real challenge to getting them online.
PigLick on 20/11/2019 at 12:34
in regards to VN games you must try Va 1Hall-A or whatever the hell its called, admittedly not for everyone but I really enjoyed it, plus the soundtrack is incredible.
gamexS on 20/11/2019 at 13:50
Just completed 45 out of 83 Career Goals on my military-themed world playing - so, the second half begins now. :eek:
This is the mentioned game:
[video=youtube_share;twFtK3qJK_8]https://youtu.be/twFtK3qJK_8[/video]
Anarchic Fox on 20/11/2019 at 19:31
Quote Posted by Starker
Even the best written video games still fall in some murky depths of genre fiction / mere entertainment. By video game standards, though, I didn't feel the visual novels I've played were all that bad. For example, I don't think that Steins;Gate did much worse than Gone Home or other games meant for young adults.
I rather strongly dislike the distinction between genre fiction and whatever the alternative is. High fiction? General fiction? Anyway, the distinction seems ahistorical to me, if it's supposed to be implicit that great fiction does not belong to genre fiction. Sometimes great fiction emerges from areas that were previously consider base and popular, such as Shakespeare's plays and Dickens' novels. Sometimes great fiction manages to create a new genre in a short time span, as happened with Austen and Tolkien. And sometimes great literature once belonged to a genre, but the genre has long since died out, as in the case of Shakespeare's sonnets or La Rochefoucauld's aphorisms. The relationship between great fiction and genre fiction is not one of opposition, but something much more nuanced.
Sadly though, you're right that video games standards are low. There's the all-too-common phenomenon of a video game story that might as well be a two-hour movie, played in five minute chunks over the course of twenty hours of gameplay.
Quote Posted by Sulphur
But If we're looking only at the singular quality of the writing in isolation, I think it's immediately apparent there's rarely the sort of depth in the VNs we've named that you could get in IF that's laser-focused on character like, say, Rameses (obscure reference, I know).
I can't speak to dialogue specifically, but I think you're right that the writerly qualities of visual novels have yet to reach the heights already attained by parser-based IF. Hopefully this is just because parser-based IF has a longer history.
qolelis on 20/11/2019 at 22:21
While searching for VN recommendations, I got one for The Pillars of the Earth, which I think I'll try eventually -- even if Steam describes it as a point & click adventure. More realism and less exaggeration seems to be what I prefer.
Starker on 21/11/2019 at 04:09
Quote Posted by Sulphur
To be clear, 'entertaining' isn't meant as a disparaging term. It takes talent to craft entertaining experiences beyond just authorial quality, and there's nothing wrong with a genre potboiler approach. Some of my most treasured experiences belong to the realm of genre fiction.
But If we're looking only at the singular quality of the writing in isolation, I think it's immediately apparent there's rarely the sort of depth in the VNs we've named that you could get in IF that's laser-focused on character like, say, Rameses (obscure reference, I know). Even Stein;s Gate imbues Okarin, its protagonist, with a massively twee characteristic like chuunibyou. This is pivotal to the narrative but also aimed squarely at the YA crowd who can relate to it and be entertained. Not a bad thing, again, but it saps the story of depth it could have otherwise developed.
Well, I just wanted to draw your attention to the fact that these are not meant to be great literature. Nobody looks at Harry Potter and thinks, "Well, too bad, if only there was more depth to the Dursleys, then you could really explore topics like abuse, forgiveness, and redemption."
And Steins;Gate is not supposed to be a character study into Okarin either. The chuuni stuff is not meant to be some deep exploration of his psyche, but just a plot-relevant quirk of his character, in part to play around with tropes like (
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityEnsues) Reality Ensues. Of course it doesn't deal with "deep" things, but typical young adult stuff like social ineptness, friendship, first love, identity, gender issues, and so on.
Speaking of Rameses, though, I get what it was trying to do, but personally I found it to be too heavy-handed and its characters to be a bit too much of a caricature. The "Why did you make me say it?" line in particular made the whole thing a bit too eye-rolling to play along with it.
Starker on 21/11/2019 at 04:44
Quote Posted by Anarchic Fox
I rather strongly dislike the distinction between genre fiction and whatever the alternative is. High fiction? General fiction?
The distinction is usually made between genre fiction and literary fiction (or even Literature with a capital "L", if you're pretentious enough), with the latter as a general rule being considered to have more literary merit, whatever that is. And as you note, it's not an exact delineation (which is why I referred to it as murky), but it's not as fluid or nuanced as you might think either. One of my American literature professors summed it up in this way, "Literature can be genre fiction, but genre fiction can never be Literature." Mind you, he was not expressing his own belief, but the general prevailing attitude in literary circles.
Anyway, the basic stereotype is that genre fiction concerns itself more with escapism, entertainment, well-known tropes, and plot while literary fiction deals more with things like the human condition, social commentary, complex well-developed characters, in-depth character studies, and style.
Quote Posted by Anarchic Fox
Sometimes great fiction manages to create a new genre in a short time span, as happened with Austen and Tolkien. And sometimes great literature once belonged to a genre, but the genre has long since died out, as in the case of Shakespeare's sonnets or La Rochefoucauld's aphorisms.
What is usually meant by the term genre literature is not just any works that belong to a genre (which is an artificial distinction anyway), but rather works written for specific genres for commercial purposes and popular appeal. Think detective novels, horror, fantasy, romance, etc.
Sulphur on 21/11/2019 at 05:59
Quote Posted by Starker
Well, I just wanted to draw your attention to the fact that these are not meant to be great literature. Nobody looks at Harry Potter and thinks, "Well, too bad, if only there was more depth to the Dursleys, then you could really explore topics like abuse, forgiveness, and redemption."
Hah. I'm not a Harry Potter fan, but aren't all three of those supposed to be big parts of the story around Harry? Anyway, I don't think anyone's expecting great literature from VN. But I don't think it'd hurt for them to explore their characters beyond the expected stereotypes.
Quote:
And Steins;Gate is not supposed to be a character study into Okarin either. The chuuni stuff is not meant to be some deep exploration of his psyche, but just a plot-relevant quirk of his character, in part to play around with tropes like (
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityEnsues) Reality Ensues. Of course it doesn't deal with "deep" things, but typical young adult stuff like social ineptness, friendship, first love, identity, gender issues, and so on.
It's essentially a bait and switch for depth (is he actually stupid? Is he play-acting because...?), and the answer isn't particularly interesting. It works as a device, but it also remains only that through the entire story: a device. (Though they do retcon the chuuni origin with the anime movie in a fairly poignant way, which I thought was a nice touch of the personally paradoxical.)
Quote:
Speaking of Rameses, though, I get what it was trying to do, but personally I found it to be too heavy-handed and its characters to be a bit too much of a caricature. The "Why did you make me say it?" line in particular made the whole thing a bit too eye-rolling to play along with it.
I'd say that was the entire point of it. Here's a person who is caught up in his own self-loathing and inability to actualise, and his many layers of internalised falsehoods to justify it: you can see why, and you just want to shake him the fuck up. There's a comment I found myself nodding my head to on Emily Short's review - 'But of course by that point we know full well that the player can't actually make Rameses do anything he doesn't want to do. I've seen other games that play with the relationship between the player and the player character, but I think this is the only time I've seen a player character use the player as a way to externalize his shame over his actions.' It's an unpleasant story with an unpleasant character, and yes, things are exaggerated for effect; but it also makes one pause and think, and that's something VNs could stand to do more of.