Starker on 21/11/2019 at 11:19
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Hah. I'm not a Harry Potter fan, but aren't all three of those supposed to be big parts of the story around Harry? Anyway, I don't think anyone's expecting great literature from VN. But I don't think it'd hurt for them to explore their characters beyond the expected stereotypes.
Here's the thing, though... Steins;Gate does explore them. Most characters in the game have some deep-seated issues that get explored to some extent. With Okabe it's his struggle to connect to people and the way he deals with it by putting up his mad scientist persona -- the hostage thing with Mayuri, the bickering, joking, and making up silly nicknames for his "assistant" Kurisu, the mentor role with Luka. And things don't start getting better until he finally starts opening up to people and stops trying to solve everything by himself. It's especially telling when he breaks from his character and admits it's just a silly game during the more serious and distressing moments. Sure, none of it is particularly deep or especially complex, but it's not like it's just a stereotype. It's a real issue that the character has and that leads to important character development along the way.
Quote Posted by Sulphur
It's essentially a bait and switch for depth (is he actually stupid? Is he play-acting because...?), and the answer isn't particularly interesting. It works as a device, but it also remains only that through the entire story: a device. (Though they do retcon the chuuni origin with the anime movie in a fairly poignant way, which I thought was a nice touch of the personally paradoxical.)
Or maybe you saw it as a bait and switch because of your expectations? And is it really fair to expect a huge amount of depth to a protagonist just because he is quirky?
Quote Posted by Sulphur
I'd say that was the entire point of it. Here's a person who is caught up in his own self-loathing and inability to actualise, and his many layers of internalised falsehoods to justify it: you can see why, and you just want to shake him the fuck up.
My reaction was not frustration with the character, but rather with the central device. Your input being ignored felt very disjointed at times, like there were two entirely separate conversations going on, and it made it feel like you were struggling with the author more than with the character. It was already by the Clockwork Orange discussion that things started to feel shaky, but the further fourth wall breaking was the death blow. I had more or less been going along with the lack of agency so far (and with it being used to make a point about the character).
Also, to me, it being the entire point was kind of damning in and of itself. It wasn't like with Spec Ops: The Line (which also depends in large part on the player going along with it) where there was also a larger point about culture and how we interact with it and consume media and it wasn't like with Photopia where the struggle against railroading reflected the very human wish to change things that have already happened and that we can't do anything about, but it was really only a minor point. Rather, Rameses having it as a central device made it feel like a gimmick more often than not, as far as I'm concerned.
To be clear, though, I didn't have any problems with the writing itself. Among IF, it's one of the better written ones, especially since teenage characters and melodrama are some of the toughest to pull off convincingly. I just thought that it would not have lost anything if it hadn't been interactive at all and the struggle in the parser had been presented as internal monologue. In fact, for me it had the opposite effect in making me want to disengage entirely and just type 'wait' over and over again.
Sulphur on 21/11/2019 at 12:01
Quote Posted by Starker
Here's the thing, though... Steins;Gate does explore them.
Perhaps I'm irredeemably jaded, but revealing the quirky character to have a heart of gold is just the apotheosis of the stereotype. It's even, dare I say it, expected. But you know, this isn't really a problem. That's below:
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Or maybe you saw it as a bait and switch because of your expectations? And is it really fair to expect a huge amount of depth to a protagonist just because he is quirky?
It's fair to expect that as that's what the narrative sets up - reasonably, I think, since he's the protagonist and accountability or the lack thereof is an important part of the story. It doesn't particularly subvert that expectation, but it didn't do it justice either for me. Okabe's writing hasn't enough meat AFAIC to explain the real inner workings of his character. And it's okay, IMO, to be disappointed by that.
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My reaction was not frustration with the character, but rather with the central device. Your input being ignored felt very disjointed at times, like there were two entirely separate conversations going on, and it made it feel like you were struggling with the author more than with the character. It was already by the Clockwork Orange discussion that things started to feel shaky, but the further fourth wall breaking was the death blow. I had more or less been going along with the lack of agency so far (and with it being used to make a point about the character).
Rameses treats your input as more or less unnecessary, and that is in fact a sub-branch of the conversation. What hope do you have to guide this kid along when he's more interested in wallowing in his neuroses? It's a relatable challenge, at least I've known people like that, and it tells you why no one can get through to them. Projection is also a defence mechanism, and that fourth wall cracking was a fairly accurate representation of it. You don't have to like it, but it's an extension of the point.
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Also, to me, it being the entire point was kind of damning in and of itself. It wasn't like with Spec Ops: The Line (which also depends in large part on the player going along with it) where there was also a larger point about culture and how we interact with it and consume media and it wasn't like with Photopia where the struggle against railroading reflected the very human wish to change things that have already happened and that we can't do anything about, but it was really only a minor point. Rather, Rameses having it as a central device made it feel like a gimmick more often than not, as far as I'm concerned.
It definitely is a gimmick, since it's a parser game that can famously be completed with just the WAIT command. It's fair to not like that, but I was impressed that the writer wrung some depth out of that core issue anyway.
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To be clear, though, I didn't have any problems with the writing itself. Among IF, it's one of the better written ones, especially since teenage characters and melodrama are some of the toughest to pull off convincingly. I just thought that it would not have lost anything if it hadn't been interactive at all and the struggle in the parser had been presented as internal monologue. In fact, for me it had the opposite effect in making me want to disengage entirely and just type 'wait' over and over again.
Agreed, I'm not particularly fond of it because as noted it's not a fun time, but it's important because it's well-written and does interesting things with the format, even if those things don't completely succeed. It's a bit of an IF Catcher in the Rye in some respects.
Starker on 21/11/2019 at 14:58
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Perhaps I'm irredeemably jaded, but revealing the quirky character to have a heart of gold is just the apotheosis of the stereotype. It's even, dare I say it, expected. But you know, this isn't really a problem. That's below:
Huh? It isn't about revealing him having a heart of gold, it's about his hang-ups and how they prevent him from connecting with others. It's more about him overcoming his quirks as it is about him having them. He is not weird to hide that he actually cares very much. He is weird and turns everything into a joke, because he's afraid of being serious and act on his feelings, at the same time longing for it.
Sulphur on 21/11/2019 at 15:35
I'm pretty sure the whole Mad Scientist thing was an effort to help Mayuri. It's one of the explanations for his behaviour.
Anarchic Fox on 21/11/2019 at 16:48
I'll make a short reply, since this is off-topic on my part.
Quote Posted by Starker
One of my American literature professors summed it up in this way, "Literature can be genre fiction, but genre fiction can never be Literature." Mind you, he was not expressing his own belief, but the general prevailing attitude in literary circles.
Yes, that's the attitude I was calling ahistorical. Thanks for providing the correct term, though! I was mixing this distinction up with the distinction between pop art and low art.
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Anyway, the basic stereotype is that genre fiction concerns itself more with escapism, entertainment, well-known tropes, and plot while literary fiction deals more with things like the human condition, social commentary, complex well-developed characters, in-depth character studies, and style.
This is a stereotype I've long regarded as an expression of a false dichotomy.
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What is usually meant by the term genre literature is not just any works that belong to a genre (which is an artificial distinction anyway), but rather works written for specific genres for commercial purposes and popular appeal. Think detective novels, horror, fantasy, romance, etc.
But is there a genre nowadays whose works don't belong to genre fiction? Noting that literary fiction doesn't count as a genre so much as an aspiration or description of quality. If "genre literature" ends up encompassing every genre I know, I may as well use the simpler definition.
Starker on 21/11/2019 at 18:44
Quote Posted by Sulphur
I'm pretty sure the whole Mad Scientist thing was an effort to help Mayuri. It's one of the explanations for his behaviour.
He uses it as a defence mechanism with everyone. Otherwise he's just a mess, like when he's trying to have a regular date with Luka. And even with Mayuri, the mad scientist thing is just because he's unable to reach out to her in any other way. He wants friends, but he can't connect to people in a regular way, so that's why he comes up with this elaborate play and the whole lab thing. The reason this works with Mayuri is not because she's particularly fond of mad scientists or anything, it's because she recognises Okarin's loneliness and she feels like helping him gives her a purpose.
And it's not just Okarin that has problems: Kurisu hides behind sarcasm and cynicism in part due to her father and in part due to her success isolating her from kids of her own age, Mayuri, while outwardly displaying cheery optimism, is deeply insecure, socially inept, and heavily depends on Okarin to have a sense of belonging, Itaru has his escapism, Moeka has been abused to the point she can only interact through her phone, Faris has abandonment issues that she deals with pretty much the in same way as Okarin, and Luka has some pretty serious gender issues.
Sulphur on 21/11/2019 at 19:38
Note that he drops the mad scientist façade when he sees what happens with Mayuri over the timelines - it's clear he thought that taking her as a 'hostage' helped her get over past trauma, so the 'good heart' narrative is definitely a part of what they were going for. I'm not particularly taken with his lack of social skills, chuunibyou's a poor psychological excuse for stupid behaviour in anime, let alone normal society.
And yeah, the other characters have problems too, granted. Nothing there particularly sticks for me writing-wise; though they might have a reason or two for being who they are, they're also fairly static as characters for Okabe to play off of - except Kurisu, who understandably gets more time and focus along with Okabe*. It's not good writing, but it isn't bad either, and so we return to my original point: what Stein;s Gate is really good at, is the plot as it develops, which is fun.
*Also, my brain keeps telling me that Okabe and Kurisu were the only characters with narrative agency in the entire story. The rest just sorta existed in Okabe's orbit. It's been a while so I may be fuzzy on this detail.
Starker on 21/11/2019 at 20:06
He doesn't do the mad scientist thing just for Mayuri, he does it with everyone, though. And he drops the mad scientist facade when he's opening up to Kurisu and ready to accept other's help. He even admits that this is just child's play at one point.
Also, this is not normal society -- these are all misfit characters who don't really belong.
Starker on 22/11/2019 at 03:26
Quote Posted by Anarchic Fox
But is there a genre nowadays whose works don't belong to genre fiction? Noting that literary fiction doesn't count as a genre so much as an aspiration or description of quality. If "genre literature" ends up encompassing every genre I know, I may as well use the simpler definition.
Genre fiction is not just any genre, though. It's popular fiction above all and is often also called that way. Of course, this has some unfortunate implications for literary fiction.
Anyway, the distinction has less to do with classifying novels into two categories and more to do with cultural conflict, brought about in part due to how the novel has evolved and how different institutions and groups have approached it. It's fundamentally a modernist idea that has somehow survived postmodernism's war on grand narratives and simple binary oppositions. At least so far.
Anarchic Fox on 23/11/2019 at 17:32
Quote Posted by Starker
Anyway, the distinction has less to do with classifying novels into two categories and more to do with cultural conflict...
Yeah, that's how I understand it. It seems to originate in the nineteenth-century popularization of literature, but I lack the knowledge to trace its origin any more precisely. Thanks for the thoughtful replies!