Of "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" - and the internet

Yakoob on 11/3/2013 at 19:03

Quote Posted by Thirith

I didn't think it was bad so much as what you've said - the target audience isn't people who know games inside out and who have thought about these issues. If anything, it felt like a primer, and as such (and considering it is only part 1) I thought it did a good job.

I agree it was probably meant as a primer, but I'm not entirely sure it's a good one. It felt kind of... limited? She basically stuck to Zelda + Mario with a few offhand examples thrown in, pretty much limiting herself entirely to the Japanese game market. I know those in many way define the gaming culture, but what about other non-nintendo franchise? Whe western or european side of things? What about counter-examples that show how women empowerment should be done? I know parts of it will probably come later, but if this was meant as a primer, they should have already been included.

I also agree with others that you can find better done videos that go into more depth in a 10 minute youtube search (from people who havent earned a dime too). Do we really need another "Oh my sexism exists in games, look at Zelda and Mario!" stretched into 23 minutes?

Angel Dust on 11/3/2013 at 19:55

Quote Posted by Yakoob

I know those in many way define the gaming culture, but what about other non-nintendo franchise? Whe western or european side of things? What about counter-examples that show how women empowerment should be done? I know parts of it will probably come later, but if this was meant as a primer, they should have already been included.

As evidenced by the sneak peek at end of the episode, those are all most definitely coming up in Part 2 which part of should be counted as the primer.

I think a big part of my disappointment with this episode is that 'Damsel in Distress' is probably the least interesting of all tropes and so obviously problematic that I didn't get as much from this video as I did some of her previous stuff like 'Woman in the Refrigerator'. Still I am interested in seeing what she says in Part 2 of 'Damsels' and the hopefully big props that Governor Marley is gonna get. :cheeky:

Yakoob on 11/3/2013 at 20:03

Another problem with "Damsel in Distress" is such a small and specific trope that that it's basically trite. There's nothing to analyze or say besides "yep it exists because evolution." Other mediums have already done all the analyzing (whatever little there is of it) which isn't any different from games. Don't really see much she can do with the topic aside a laundry list of examples and counter examples.

Now looking at women empowerment via games or even funding a game to tackle this would've been a bit more interesting/constructive.

But then, its the kickstarter funders who really voted with their wallet "yes we want another youtube video on a topic we already got million videos about!"

Muzman on 11/3/2013 at 21:46

The kickstarter backers voted with their wallets to flip off internet arseholes more than anything. I think most of them that are long time gamers and/or lit crit types feel largely the same way about the level she pitches her stuff at. But they are relatively few people in the scheme of things.
This thing of older gamers standing around going "Impress me. Come on" is...weird. and the idea that its been done before as a problem is weird too. There must be dozens of first year feminist media books and anthologies, and what's more they keep making new ones, which mostly cover the same stuff with a slightly different emphasis here, different interpretation there. They don't stop because the second years already read that stuff.

It's understandable that people are giving her stuff some scrutiny now (even if I think they're doing it wrong). At the same time it is often forgetting, y'know, the world in that way esoteric interests are wont to do I feel.

It's interesting for people putting forward other stuff they like better (which I bet virtually no one read until now). So people should definitely link to all these superior works.

heywood on 11/3/2013 at 22:29

The other thing about the damsel in distress trope is that it's prevalent in every form of media.

jay pettitt on 11/3/2013 at 23:03

I thought it was pretty good. I can't say I've spent a lot of time watching youtube videos on gender equality/media issues so the history of how games got to be where they are at was pretty interesting to to my mind. Also revealing. Looking forward to the next one.

van HellSing on 11/3/2013 at 23:08

I'm mostly waiting for the positive examples one, so I can deconstruct each one of them and prove just how horribly sexist and misogynistic they actually are.

retractingblinds on 11/3/2013 at 23:49

It's all well and good that there's people criticizing entertainment mediums, however why study and criticize games with purposefully simple plots, characters and storylines? No one plays any old zelda, mario, beat 'em up for their story. These games were popular because the lack of story and were memorable for their game play more than anything. The purpose of the game was to play well, not to have an engaging cast of characters. Just look at the male contrast in these games. Did Mario have some sort of well developed character in the first...every Mario game ever? No. He was equally as one-dimensional as Peach. Or even Link. Today I can't think of a Zelda game where he acts on more than motive alone. The point is, these games have their frankly stupid plots to justify the game play. That is the only reason they exist. We don't apply criticism to fairy tale, because there's no room for it. More than anything, we use fairy tale as a spring board into more developed scenarios of storytelling.

Like here, there's no room for it. There is no precedent of sexism being set by these games having simple stories. The entire concept of pushing these tropes in a broad sense to categorize the things video games do wrong is a very poor approach to criticism of a medium. More often than not, Anita ended up discussing irrelevant factors, hell, there was a good minute or two spent on tossing around French etymology...what the hell? This isn't how you go about a subject like this. We need clear cut case study examples, laden with proof, and providing a solution. Not bickering about how the interactive equivalent of a children's fairy tale has a poor representation of women, as it does of men. The very foundation of the tropes vs anything argument is broken, this is vilifying the wrong works entirely.

What's more, why not target games which do act on a narrative level primarily? Why not the Mass Effect series, or The Witcher? They're ripe with this trope fodder, if you cut a corner and a half here (not like this wasn't done for these classic games), you can no doubt shoe horn any number of these broken outlines into off handed, awkwardly delivered criticism. Or at the very least pick on something with substance. Maybe Mass Effect's representation of homosexuality.

Angel Dust on 12/3/2013 at 00:25

Quote Posted by Muzman

It's interesting for people putting forward other stuff they like better (which I bet virtually no one read until now). So people should definitely link to all these superior works.

Indeed. I'd really like to know which videos Yakoob thinks have covered this ground already cos I'd be interested in watching them.

jay pettitt on 12/3/2013 at 22:20