Of "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" - and the internet - by Firefreak
demagogue on 17/6/2012 at 01:30
If you're responding to me, I'm totally for more criticism & analysis, especially if it's already been done before (all the more likely it's getting overlooked now). I love it. I just think people shouldn't react like "OMG, what are you even saying?!!" when both sides of the argument, or their typical style of responses, are so old hat, especially in the online era where arguments get oldhat practically overnight. It's like watching atheists & Christians "debate"... Do they really think they're going to stumble into some argument in a casual, emotionally-driven discussion that wasn't already hashed out ad nauseum in the 1880s? Just read an article and it'll catch them up about 100 times further than they could get letting their emotion do the talking. I'm not against talking about it more, especially in a dispassionate way by reasonable people over coffee or something, but just people getting huffy about it like they're the first ones to argue about it and their knee-jerk emotion is the source of all Truth at that moment.
Of course it's natural for everybody to react like that for emotional debates their first few times exposed to it, so I'm not even blaming them either. I just think it needs to be pointed out so they at least get the memo and can pay attention to their own emotions getting played.
Edit: I'm not like a self-appointed argument police though either. People can harp on whatever the hell they want to. That's the online world. So it's more a matter of just throwing that observation out to smack down any point or validation in their emotion they thought they had. Not trying to shut them up. Let them harp on if they insist... If I have any dog in the race, it's that I really respect whenever somebody actually does say something fresh & original about it. I like it so much when that happens that I can tolerate all the barking that goes on in the sidelines just in case somebody does stumble into it... That's why I respected this lady's project idea from the start and didn't worry myself too much over the hubbub it raised.
Yakoob on 17/6/2012 at 02:34
Just wanted to bring out a point that is overlooked - female stereotypes are also male stereotypes. If a woman is expected to "be in the kitchen and raise the family" it ALSO means the man is expected to be "out working and providing for the family." How many times have we seen a man get heckled by his parents/society for not getting a job, or not doing anything with their life (while the female can get away with more slack; this is even more true in very traditional societies like India or Japan).
Or another example -if a woman is portrayed as the motherly figure whose duty is to make kids for the nation, it often does so by downplaying or even excluding the male and his paternal influences. Thus why a woman is almost guaranteed to win custody rights in court.
I am NOT discrediting marginalization of women and I do fully agree they historically have been and, in many aspects, still are far more limited in the society than the males. But I just wanted to show that there is another side of the coin, and every "limitation" creates a parallel "expectation" on the other side.
Thanks for the link, I just watched them and found them quite fascinating. I was expecting the typical "oh boo-hoo women are sex objects!" but the vids actually pick some interesting tropes I haven't considered before.
That being said, I feel some of them are a little one-sided. Take the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope; yes it is true, but for each one, there's at least one romantic comedy where the males are equally one-dimensional serving only as a target for the female lead. And the pregnancy one smelled so much of entitlement issues ("how dare they explore pregnancy as something else than magical and emotionally charged of life-creation!"). But the Women in Refrigirator and Smurfette were quite spot on, I didn't even realize how widespread that really is when you think about it.
Firefreak on 17/6/2012 at 05:07
To answer a previous question: The kickstarter project had a goal of 6,000 USD and ended with 158,917 USD.
Quote Posted by Yakoob
But the Women in Refrigirator and Smurfette were quite spot on, I didn't even realize how widespread that really is when you think about it.
This is one of the things I'm taking out of all this; While it is to some extent a conscious decision to participate in sexist trash talk, there are several cases, such as these tropes, that I didn't think about. They are so much the 'norm' that I didn't think of challenging or question - even realize them.
It's like words or phrases you used for years only to get told what their dark past is.
The (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH8JuizIXw8) Bechdel Test was also some eye opener to me.
Of course the trash talk is bad as well - especially and even more so when it becomes 'muscle memory' like in the article dethtoll posted.
Muzman on 17/6/2012 at 08:55
Quote Posted by Yakoob
Just wanted to bring out a point that is overlooked - female stereotypes are also male stereotypes. If a woman is expected to "be in the kitchen and raise the family" it ALSO means the man is expected to be "out working and providing for the family." How many times have we seen a man get heckled by his parents/society for not getting a job, or not doing anything with their life (while the female can get away with more slack; this is even more true in very traditional societies like India or Japan).
There's barely a feminist academic alive who won't tell you that limiting the choices and roles for women also limits men. In Western societies particularly, however, this is not as explicit or narrow in its application as it is for women. Men have generally been happy with their power and keen to see it maintained (even if it's exclusive and quite happy to discard a lot of males along the way).
I don't want to pick on you per se, but this comes up every single time some feminist opens her mouth about anything. Like there has to be some balancing of the ledger (if a woman, particularly a feminist, is observing something she must be complaining, right. Who will speak for men?!? OMG) It's not a revelation or particularly interesting unfortunately. What is though, is why so many people feel like they need to do this; like it must be made a battle of the sexes if it's not already.
I still blame 15 or so years of barely opposed Rush Limbaugh et al but that still seems inadequate as an explanation.
Thirith on 17/6/2012 at 09:49
Quote Posted by Muzman
I don't want to pick on you per se, but this comes up every single time some feminist opens her mouth about anything. Like there has to be some balancing of the ledger (if a woman, particularly a feminist, is observing something she must be complaining, right. Who will speak for men?!? OMG) It's not a revelation or particularly interesting unfortunately. What is though, is why so many people feel like they need to do this; like it must be made a battle of the sexes if it's not already.
Thanks for posting this, Muzman; I agree 100%. It happens so often that perfectly valid points in the discussion are dismissed because, oh my god, the feminist in question doesn't also address how unfair things are towards men - which is unfair and disingenuous, really.
For one thing, no one ever addresses the entirety of an issue in every statement, nor can they. Even if they did, people by and large don't have the attention span to listen to something that broad, at least not until they're already well and truly engaged in the conversation (and willing to go beyond, "You're wrong and I hate you!") For another, so many feminists raise exactly those issues, but since they're not the loud, opinionated, extreme ones they're not focused on by people who want to score cheap shots against feminists. (Seriously: anyone who uses the term 'feminazi' pretty much Godwins themselves and voids their own argument, if it wasn't void to begin with.)
Renzatic on 17/6/2012 at 10:02
How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
One, and how dare you...
Angel Dust on 17/6/2012 at 10:23
Yeah, well said Muz. I was about to post something similar but you've put it far better than I could. Equality for women is not just about women getting the same opportunities as men but also about the things that are seen as 'woman stuff' being valued by society as much as 'man stuff', which would naturally lead to men being somewhat liberated too.
RE this Kickstarter - I think it's worth pointing out that it made its goal in 24 hours and was at well over $20,000 when she posted the youtube video and the shit storm began, so it was already a roaring success on its own merits. Personally, I chucked in $5 because it's an issue that concerns me and I've liked her previous stuff. I'm not always in 100% agreement with her but she articulates her ideas clearly and gets me thinking. Will the videos make any difference? In a small way, I think so. They're not going to cause a massive shift in female representations in games but I can see the odd game designer, who wasn't necessarily sexist but just naturally fell into the tropes, going "hmm, maybe I'll avoid that in the future".
Dresden on 17/6/2012 at 11:21
Quote Posted by Thirith
(Seriously: anyone who uses the term 'feminazi' pretty much Godwins themselves and voids their own argument, if it wasn't void to begin with.)
Touchy. Much like most modern feminists themselves. I really wish I didn't live in the age of "wahhh you made me feel uncomfortable! I can't deal with that".
"Women in games, with a few notable exceptions, are cliches"
Chell, Rochelle, Zoey, Alyx, Faith, Viktoria, Jaina Proudmore, Mara Jade, SHODAN (I suppose), Stacey Forsythe, Lara Croft, Governor Marley, Trishka, Grace Nakamura, Sarah Kerrigan, Cortana, The Boss (Metal Gear Solid 3), Cate Archer.
Wow. That's a lot of "few notable exceptions" just off the top of my head. Maybe she should dig slightly deeper than just the very top layer of bullshit games or stop being so incredibly selective. I mean look at the characters on the Women vs Tropes picture. Miss Pac-Man, fucking really? Daphne from Dragon's Lair, a character today's generation isn't even aware of, and five other ones I don't even recognize. Cortana and Lara Croft are debatable. And a character from a game that is basically softcore porn for men. Cry me a fucking river.
You can have Kevin James play a billion roles as idiot men that make the female lead look brilliant, but don't you dare make a game called Fat Princess. That's unfair...somehow.
Muzman on 17/6/2012 at 11:41
Modern feminists huh. Those feminist from the middle ages had much more decorum I'm sure.
Amazing how a largely descriptive project (it seems) could offend you so much before it's even done. It's almost as though Dresy is brimming with some irrational prejudice.
