Of "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" - and the internet

Thirith on 17/6/2012 at 12:30

Ironic that "feminazi" is pretty much the lowest level of that pyramid, isn't it?

Muzman on 17/6/2012 at 13:11

Quote Posted by Dresden

-picture of unclear relevance

If you are actually making any sort of argument (which I struggle to find) then it's a straw man (hurrr) from the get go.
You seem only to have assumed that this project will only conclude that gaming's representation of female characters is entirely negative, before it is even begun, and that this is somehow worth arguing against.
You fail.

demagogue on 17/6/2012 at 13:17

Quote Posted by Thirith

Ironic that "feminazi" is pretty much the lowest level of that pyramid, isn't it?

Then again, many feminists decry the hegemony of male-dominated, so-called "universal", "reason" and "logic" over more important & relative feelings, narratives, and emotion, so invert the pyramid anyway, or at least turn it on its side. A lot of their writings don't seem comfortable when too many "rational" arguments come to their defense, since appeals to "universal reason" that are not universal at all is part of the problem.

I think this is one reason why each side finds the other side so insufferable... Analytic types can't speak their logic to feminists, and feminists instantly distrust any appeal to something "universal" coming from a man (at least one that hasn't been a woman before & is trying to speak from their own experience). Of course if you've been reading it for a while, IMO it's not rocket science to pull out the arguments feminists are making that make sense from those that are grasping for straws.

SubJeff on 17/6/2012 at 13:55

So what you're saying is - bitches be crazy!

I can dig that.

june gloom on 17/6/2012 at 13:56

Can we at least agree that so-called Men's Rights Activists are terrified, regressive monkeys?

SubJeff on 17/6/2012 at 14:16

In all seriousness now. Dema, feminists who want to discuss equal rights without the use of logic can get lost imho. First of all you can't come to the table with a different set of rules altogether or the card game won't work. Secondly; if you're talking about something as logically solid as "equality" you'd better be prepared to use logic to get there.

june gloom on 17/6/2012 at 14:22

If a discussion over feminism/equality turns into an argument over logic vs. emotion then the discussion is over because it's stupid. I haven't really seen any feminists arguing against logic because it's a male domain, though I suppose someone like that may exist, but more likely they're arguing against people who think their logic alone is the correct logic. "Universal reason" usually isn't, as dema rightfully pointed out.

Jason Moyer on 17/6/2012 at 14:41

I view feminism the same way I view racial inequality. At this point in history, it's fairly pointless to blame white males for your problems when there's so much parity opportunity-wise between all kinds of people. Do sexism and racism exist, and are they a problem? Sure as hell. It still seems to me like it would be more productive to target people within your own group who perpetuate sexist/racist stereotypes.

june gloom on 17/6/2012 at 15:00

Whites aren't a minority and men have more power. It's a systematic imbalance. The thing is, we've been on top for so long we have no idea what the bottom looks like -- not that we've ever been there to begin with. It's not about "blaming whites/men for your problems" -- and it's a gross oversimplification to claim thus. (Though, unfortunately, there's people out there who are mentally lazy enough to just say "oh it's white man's fault" and leave it at that, as if that explains everything and if white men (or whites and men) disappeared the world would turn into a magical fairy land. They're just a vocal minority and not worth anyone's time -- they certainly don't represent the whole of the feminist/racial equality movement.) It's about pointing out, often to people who simply haven't noticed it before, issues inherent to this traditional imbalance. That's why discussing the way women are portrayed in video games is important -- it needs to be discussed, because we're still making a big deal over strong female characters who aren't a pair of tits that fire bullets.

But it's true, feminist messages shouldn't just be spread by women alone; dudes need to get involved too. Dudes need to start telling the subhuman shithampers who rage about Sarkeesian et al. to shut the fuck up and go play Starcraft, and dudes need to teach other dudes -- the non-troglodyte kind whose only crime is ignorance -- why the shit that comes out of their mouths is harmful.

june gloom on 17/6/2012 at 15:26

And, in turn, I want to hop on something before someone else picks up on it and things get out of hand:

The Men's Rights Movement in its current incarnation is a big fucking joke. It pretty much qualifies as a hate group (Southern Poverty Law Center certainly seems to think so) and it cares little for men or their rights, despite the name. What it is, is a group of throwbacks terrified by the changing role of men in society and family in the last few decades. The notion that women don't really need their assistance to survive is driving them out of their minds. Like white supremacists, their whole message is based on fear.

Men have rights, far more than we realize. Male privilege far outstrips that of any other demographic, especially among white heterosexuals. Let's be real here, the man's place in traditional society was pretty damn comfortable. Pursue whatever job you want, come home and all the tedious and mundane chores of housekeeping and childrearing are done, and you can focus on your career and things that interest you with a loyal "helper" to take care of the shitty boring stuff. MRAs are terrified that this is going away. Say what you will about the community college dropout who took a couple of phil classes and now claims that men should be used as breeding stock and then slaughtered for meat -- as cartoonish yet depressingly real as she is, she is a very vocal, very small minority relegated to tiny dark corners of the internet and has no real power. MRAs are, by definition, men, and several aspects of their viewpoint, built on debunked bullshit, are shared by many, though perhaps without the same level of vitriol.

Discussion of men and their rights as their place and role in society changes is worth pursuing, but it has to be centered on something other than misogyny and anti-feminism. The Men's Right's movement isn't for men so much as it's against women -- and some of their ideas about men are pretty fucking harmful to boot.