Of "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" - and the internet - by Firefreak
Jason Moyer on 17/6/2012 at 15:27
Guys like titties and dick jokes. I don't really see this as an inherently bad thing. Guys who like titties and dick jokes make games for other guys who like titties and dick jokes. And guns. If you don't like titties and dick jokes and ultra-macho violence, then awesome, no one's asking or forcing you to participate in anything and you can pretty much ignore it since it's not doing anything to you. I find the vast majority of popular culture (including subculture) offensive; I could let it ruin my day or make a documentary about how culturally vacant most people are, but fuck it, I could do something productive like enjoying or creating things I actually like.
Now if your sex is keeping you from getting a job or is resulting in being harassed on the street or whatever? If sexism is invading your personal space? Yeah, that's bullshit. If you're simply being offended by someone else's taste or opinions? Eh, eat a dick (I don't mean that literally, unless of course you're into that then by all means).
If I were that chick (what's her face, the one with the tits in that kickstarter video) I'd take that money and make a documentary about games that create believable, positive female characters. Or I'd help fund someone who is trying to make such a game. Creating a documentary about women being portrated as silicon fuckbags and then basically saying "here are a bunch of games that portray women as silicon fuckbags, omg that is sad" doesn't really seem to serve a purpose. Now, if you interviewed the designers of those games, that would be potentially illuminating. If you managed to secure an interview with some 14 year old who posted "OMG, SOME1 SHUD KILL THIS DYKE" that would be interesting. Making a documentary where the premise basically tells you everything the film is going to before you watch it? I don't see the point.
Thirith on 17/6/2012 at 15:37
Shit, dethtoll, when did you get into my brain and steal my thoughts? It's fucking scary!
Dresden on 17/6/2012 at 15:47
If they want to change things, they should get into the industry and do it instead of whining from the outside. Stop pretending there's something stopping you. Men aren't stopping you from doing anything unless you count publishers who think males will only buy games with male leads. That is usually the case sadly and it's a male dominated hobby.
If women are so annoyed, they could even make some indie games. There's nothing stopping them. Indie games are pretty huge now. Yet I don't see any games with female leads being made by women. As a matter of fact, an indie game that cleverly addresses the issue would be way more effective than someone merely talking about it because you'd be reaching out to the very people you're trying to convince.
I guess it's way easier to complain than actually do something.
june gloom on 17/6/2012 at 15:48
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
Guys like titties and dick jokes. I don't really see this as an inherently bad thing. Guys who like titties and dick jokes make games for other guys who like titties and dick jokes. And guns. If you don't like titties and dick jokes and ultra-macho violence, then awesome, no one's asking or forcing you to participate in anything and you can pretty much ignore it since it's not doing anything to you. I find the vast majority of popular culture (including subculture) offensive; I could let it ruin my day or make a documentary about how culturally vacant most people are, but fuck it, I could do something productive like enjoying or creating things I actually like.
But when games full of titties and dick jokes and ultra-macho violence (exaggerating but you get my meaning) are the
vast fucking majority of games, well, you can imagine how some people would feel a bit... excluded.
And that's the whole crux of the matter. So much of pop culture is geared towards men, to the exclusion of all else. Comic books, video games, movies -- all are made by guys for guys. Nothing wrong with their
existence, but there's a real sense of segregation here: women's pop culture is often either insultingly vapid (OMG HERE'S A MOVIE ABOUT GIRLS BUYING SHOES) or deeply obscure, and either way there's going to be a few primates who want to smash it just for existing, despite the fact that it only takes up a very small slice of the whole.
june gloom on 17/6/2012 at 15:56
Quote Posted by Dresden
If they want to change things, they should get into the industry and do it instead of whining from the outside. Stop pretending there's something stopping you. Men aren't stopping you from doing anything unless you count publishers who think males will only buy games with male leads. That is usually the case sadly and it's a male dominated hobby.
What is with this notion that pointing things out about portrayals of women constitutes complaining? It's not complaining. It's
pointing shit out. Again, a lot of people simply have not noticed this sort of stuff before because it's so pervasive that they're not given the opportunity to think "hmm something seems a bit out of whack here." And why does it keep being pointed out? Because people keep not noticing.
Quote Posted by Dresden
If women are so annoyed, they could even make some indie games. There's nothing stopping them. Indie games are pretty huge now. Yet I don't see any games with female leads being made by women. As a matter of fact, an indie game that cleverly addresses the issue would be way more effective than someone merely talking about it because you'd be reaching out to the very people you're trying to convince.
No it wouldn't, because "indie game with a message" isn't nearly as popular as "quirky physics-based portfolio fodder." And anyway all your post really boils down to is "critical analysis is pointless complaining."
Dresden on 17/6/2012 at 16:09
Quote Posted by dethtoll
And anyway all your post really boils down to is "critical analysis is pointless complaining."
Except Women vs Tropes isn't critical analysis. It's cherry picked ignorance.
june gloom on 17/6/2012 at 16:15
And that therefore invalidates everything I've fucking said. Okay. I'll just go smash my balls with a hammer then.
Kuuso on 17/6/2012 at 16:22
As a person who's studies are closely related to gender studies, I find this debacle quite fascinating. First of all, the shitstorm is just a reminder of what comes when anonymity and general backwardness is combined. Backlash was to occur, but the scale is quite astonishing. It doesn't really give a nice picture of american men (saying american, because most commenters are most likely americans, not that this couldn't happen in other countries).
What is annoying about this thing is that the series isn't even made yet, so everyone is bashing without any kind of reason apart from prejudgement from her previous work. I must confess that I haven't looked at her previous work, thus I do not know how qualified she is to do a series like this.
What I'd like to point out is that gender studies used to be women's studies and used to employ vast amounts of pseudoscience and bullshit. This is one of the reason why feminism as an ideology is tarnished even though gender studies nowadays is intriguing and as valid as any other studies. The "problem" is that feminism often seems to be stuck in women's studies instead of gender. An example: most feminists and their organisations still tout "women's euro is 80cents" here (in Finland, might vary in other countries). They always fail to explain that women get exactly the same amount of money as men from the same job, they're just usually in fields of employment that have lesser wages (which in turn, are a product of multitude of things, which can include discrimination). Stuff like this just makes them look mischievous or stupid.
Women in video games are depicted most often than not from male game developer's point of view. Thus, it's natural that women are depicted in certain ways that could differ, if the developer was female. It's a structural problem in which I would love to see more female developers. I am not saying that men are necessarily idiotic, when portraying women, but I would wager there's a difference.
However, I would be really careful, when analysing games in this perspective of women. Satire, humour and irony bloom in video games, because they're easier to create than serious games. The thing is that mainstream gaming, or media altogether, is focused on the surface, which means that most stuff produced does not have the capacity to create complex enough characters and stories. This creates these tropes she is going to investigate. The problem is that she should not go at it from a feminist point of view, because she is going to miss the big picture, if she is not really careful.
ps: lots of games have interesting female characters as well, so handpicking examples can feel discriminatory. You also have to actually do really good research on the games to determine how it actually depicts female characters. For example Bayonetta is more subtle than people think. Same goes for Lara Croft, who is a peculiarly transsexual character.
Also, I think we are progressing swiftly in this area. Games like Heavy rain and forthcoming Beyond: Two Souls are good on this regard. Also looking at the new Tomb Raider coming, it is also easy to see the differences compared to the earlier games.
CCCToad on 17/6/2012 at 16:37
Well, the people who get butthurt about this stuff are generally insecure, snivelling, weak little rat-men. What's interesting is how much she seems to strike a nerve. I seem to get the feeling that most of the posters enjoy their video game titillation, and are reacting out of a sense of rage that someone dare criticize their vice. It just doesn't seem that far removed from the people who get livid over somebody insulting their favorite console. If your identity is so weak that you depend on stuff like that to maintain a healthy ego, what does that say of the rest of your life?
Muzman on 17/6/2012 at 17:36
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
If I were that chick (what's her face, the one with the tits in that kickstarter video) I'd take that money and make a documentary about games that create believable, positive female characters.
...
Making a documentary where the premise basically tells you everything the film is going to before you watch it? I don't see the point.
hoho with your edgy jokes. That'll show 'em. Who, I don't know. Or what, for that matter. But I'm sure they're shown...something, whoever they are.
The game idea is an interesting one (although when you consider the shit Hey Baby got, why would women want to get into indie games? Not that that was a game exactly, more of a comedic statement. Hell, The Path copped a fair bit of stick too. Probably would have got more if people could understand it).
Anyway I don't get this defensive objection thing of yours. What about it tells you what it's going to be like at the end? She doesn't seem especially angry or offended (she does use the Misogyny grenade though. I often think feminists should go easy on that one because it's taken as so inflammatory). It sounds like mostly a descriptive application of female character tropes to games. You can tell already if she's going to do a good job?
I don't think you get how education works either. It's a waste of time telling people things that are already known? (by some) Since when? That's the basis of all knowledge you're talking about there.
Likewise, if you think criticism and theory has no role in shaping art I don't think you've been paying attention.
It's like you're reacting to some sort of ball tearing activism in your head that you don't like and criticising this for not being that at the same time. (you caught that some of the videos are devoted to industry trends and good female characters, right?) It doesn't make a lot of sense. Dresden can toddle off and fight with the feminism he made up. Here I think we can do better.
