Of "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" - and the internet - by Firefreak
Shadow on 17/6/2012 at 21:14
Quote Posted by Kuuso
Fucking hell it's annoying, when Dethtoll starts shitting on threads like this. Doesn't matter he is wrong or right, he'll just start slinging shit as soon as someone disagrees with him long enough.
:cheeky:
You disagree with dethtool, you get one warning. If you decide to continue perpetrating this heinous crime, well, I hope you brought your shit-resistant suit...
you fucking moron. :p
june gloom on 17/6/2012 at 23:26
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I accept your exaggeration but even so the vast majority of games are not of this type. Sure, the really popular ones may be, but the majority?
the majority. Of course you don't see it -- it's part of your daily life. Try
really taking a look at it. It's in
everything. It's pervasive and all-encompassing. It's not just video games. It's
(http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-02-sexy.png) everywhere, and sometimes it's subtle. Just because the loudest examples are loud doesn't mean they're the only examples.
This is perhaps the most
basic concept when it comes to this sort of thing. And yet people like you (
http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-05-sphincterclench.png) prefer to pretend it doesn't exist, for whatever reason.
Quote Posted by Kuuso
Fucking hell it's annoying, when Dethtoll starts shitting on threads like this. Doesn't matter he is wrong or right, he'll just start slinging shit as soon as someone disagrees with him long enough.
Quote Posted by Shadow
:cheeky:
You disagree with dethtool, you get one warning. If you decide to continue perpetrating this heinous crime, well, I hope you brought your shit-resistant suit...
you fucking moron. :p
God you fucking people.
So basically as soon as I start getting frustrated with Subjeff because he's being fucking dense today (let's just ignore his pattern of staggering ignorance on several other topics) that automatically invalidates what I've been saying this whole thread? Nevermind the fact that what he is saying is complete bullshit, and worse it's
lazy -- increasingly common with him, which is distressing because he's a smart fellow, so why's he spouting nonsense?
Quote Posted by demagogue
I think we must be one of rarer gaming forums that's leaning on the feminist side on this, and not just settling short with an anti-anti-feminist line.
Not really, no. I'm surprised it's taken this long for this particular thread to get my blood pressure up, but I'm also surprised at just how damn
backwards a few people I nominally respect are -- and that's just
this thread. I could dig up quite a few other rageworthy threads.
SubJeff on 17/6/2012 at 23:37
I'm not saying it's not out there, that it's not easy to find it or even that it's not problematic. But it's certainly not in the majority of games.
And just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm ignorant on a topic. (What are these topics anyway? Gun control? pffft)
june gloom on 17/6/2012 at 23:44
It is in the majority of games -- you just do not see it because it doesn't bother you. I don't know how much plainer I can make it. Disagreeing with me doesn't mean you're not wrong.
demagogue on 18/6/2012 at 01:22
Who gives a shit the exact % anyway? It's rife in a ton of games. The point is there's a massive market clamoring for it. The exact % is probably some function of how big is that demographic, their purchasing power, how they want to spend their free time, etc., and the pressure game studios feel to live off focus groups & marketing sacred cows.
There are more "mechanical" games too like Civilization that don't turn on NPC gender, but even those are pretty male-centric if you looked detail by detail. (Does the drive to world domination keep women ruthlessly playing on & on as much as men? I'm betting no.) Games with majority female players are like The Sims and Zynga games, and these probably are a lot better about gender sensitivity. They have to be! But they're in the minority because female gamers are a small minority, and stick to a narrower range of games at that.
Anyway, if we were taking SubjEffs claim seriously, what he'd have to be claiming is a majority of games developed for a male demographic are sensitive to gender, which I think is a tough pill to swallow.
Well, here are (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_in_video_gaming) 2011 games. I'm doing a knee jerk calculation here by sight, but picking random samples of like 50 at a time, I'm hitting around ~65% of them are clearly male trope dominant, and another ~20% I'm not sure about. So there you go... This is an exercise you can do yourself too. Everybody happy now? It is a bit more balanced than I expected, but it's including stuff like Wii and JRPGs, and again there's stuff like PopCap, browser & FB games that would even it a bit more if you were being complete -- but there are other reasons to be worried about those games (at least some of the Wii, & PopCap & browser "games"); for one, they're soulless, casual crapfests designed to shut down your imagination as much as possible.
Papy on 18/6/2012 at 02:26
Quote Posted by dethtoll
feminist messages shouldn't just be spread by women alone; dudes need to get involved too.
No they should not. For someone who view women as inferior, a man who sides with feminist ideas always end up looking as a traitor and as an asshole who's trying to be friend with women only to have a chance to fuck. He end up looking as an hypocrite and, by association, he makes women look like hypocrites. Worse, he indirectly proves that women need men at their side to have a place in society. He makes women look weak. He indirectly proves to sexist people that women are inferior.
Firefreak on 18/6/2012 at 04:47
Quote Posted by Papy
No they should not. For someone who view women as inferior, a man who sides with feminist ideas always end up looking as a traitor [...] He indirectly proves to sexist people that women are inferior.
I guess those that are actively pursuing sexist notions possibly can't be told any better. But it sets to the 'neutral' one a signal whether a third one actively counters the sexist behavior - or ignores it and
apparently accepts this.
I see myself been more in this 'neutral' (perhaps better: impartial) position, thinking "Well, I do come across the occasional sexist remark, but those must be the remnants and generally it must be OK - I
guess". It did indeed take active countermeasures to make me look, interest, understand and view it from other perspectives - partly because most I've 'learned' about feminists was from the (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnJxqRLg9x0) Straw Feminist. (It was indeed that 'dudes' video which brought me to there in the first place) Two days of actively taking interest in these matters no way make me any expert on them, capable of upholding any decent discussion - but I realized that there is more to all. After all, the first step in avoiding a trap is to know of its existence.
henke on 18/6/2012 at 05:12
Papy, are you saying that as a man it's better to do nothing at all rather than speak up for women's rights?
I don't agree with that. I think it matters
who you're trying to convince though. If you speak your mind to friends and people who
know you, it'll have more of an impact than trying to convince strangers (on the internet). Someone who doesn't know you, and is stubborn enough in his beliefs, can always write your opinions off as hypocricy. Still, even so, it's better to say something than say nothing just to let the misogynists know they're in the minority. If nothing else it might shame them into shutting the hell up.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
So basically as soon as I start getting frustrated [...] that automatically invalidates what I've been saying this whole thread?
To quote a line from one of my favourite movies "You're not wrong, you're just an asshole!". Gets really hard to agree with anything you say when you start letting the ad-hominems fly. I'm downloading the Snow Crash audiobook right now so I hope you're happy with yourself.
Koki on 18/6/2012 at 05:38
FFS I can't even leave you people for a weekend anymore
Kolya on 18/6/2012 at 08:33
Quote Posted by Papy
No they should not. For someone who view women as inferior, a man who sides with feminist ideas always end up looking as a traitor and as an asshole who's trying to be friend with women only to have a chance to fuck. He end up looking as an hypocrite and, by association, he makes women look like hypocrites. Worse, he indirectly proves that women need men at their side to have a place in society. He makes women look weak. He indirectly proves to sexist people that women are inferior.
This isn't some kind of war, with two factions who can never help each other or show solidarity. Your mama is one. So is your sister. If they are excluded and insulted in our culture, it doesn't just hurt some group. It hurts us. So be a man and stand up for the ones you love.
