Of "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" - and the internet - by Firefreak
Phatose on 18/6/2012 at 15:09
Well, at any rate seems pretty hard to me to deny there's a lot of sexism in gaming.
You've got overt sexism (Dead or Alive Beach volleyball, Duke Nukem). That's not the 100% rule, but there sure is a lot of it.
You've got subtle sexism in individual games (Ashley's default armor in ME3 isn't her combat armor like for everyone else, and has legging designed an awful lot like thigh high stockings).
You got institutional sexism that's been there forever (beat Metroid, and it shows you Samus is female - then immediately unlocks her in a swimsuit. That shit don't happen in Mario Brothers).
So, yeah, even discounting the online experience, you're up to your knees in sexism.
Thing is, I'm don't think you can fix it by changing games. The sexism in games is a reflection of what the people who buy games want, and the target market pretty much wants that objectification of women. Might as well try to remove the sexism from porn.
faetal on 18/6/2012 at 15:15
You change it by having the big discussions, highlighting the controversy and changing games by using more scrutiny. I think there's every chance that the game will be every bit as enjoyable without the sexist tropes - they are just there because the culture of a certain demographic at a certain time point has been feeding back on itself for a while. As the games change, so will the demographics and perhaps most importantly, the people who make games. Once that happens, say for example in 20 years there is more or less decent equality both in terms who games and who makes games, then we will look back at games like Gears of War and find them very backwards, kind of like watching casual racism in films from the '60s.
It is not a one-way street gamers don't want content independently of what content is generated, the information and shaping of the culture flows in both directions. This topic being hot is a good point of divergence from the ongoing culture to stem from. I am willing to bet that the quality of games won't be hit at all, unless game development hinges on the ability to use gender stereotypes. Almost every other medium has moved on from its less enlightened forbears - gaming won't be an exception.
Koki on 18/6/2012 at 15:33
Quote Posted by faetal
Sometimes alter egos take on a life of their own.
Now ain't that some shit.
(
http://i.imgur.com/xxNIY.png) attention whoring aside, what is this thread even about? Women being sexualized in games? You mean like they've been sexualized in every other goddamn media since forever? Because you might not have known but sex sells. And no amount of "punctuated equlibrium" is going to change that(if anything it changed for the worse; look at this soap ad from (
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2734/4273442489_21bf8e84c4.jpg) the horrible chauvinist sixties, then turn on the TV and wait for a shampoo commercial)
Or is it about women not being the leads in videogames about shooting dudes? Even though they have so much going for them - less muscle mass, less aggresiveness, and periods!
So if all you pallies want to rage about sexism, why not start by stoning Triumph billboards and writing outraged letters to (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_special_forces_units) your country's special forces unit for not employing any women?
Remember, you are the 99%
faetal on 18/6/2012 at 15:46
Stop refuting the parts of my posts which are obviously not serious.
I DON'T REALLY THINK YOU ARE DETHTOLL.
Addendum: Gaming is notably worse than other forms of media for sexism. Film isn't great either (someone already mentioned the Bechdel test), but it's a heck of a site better than gaming. It likely isn't a coincidence that until recently, there weren't many female gamers, and still now there are a very few women working in game dev. You seem to be conflating the idea that human culture will never be free from gender stereotypes with that of gaming not being able to become better in this area.
A lot of it just sounds like you don't like the notion of sexism being something which could be tackled and ameliorated to any extent(that said, the case made in the first link you posted is food for thought, particularly about the over-funding being better going to charity).
Addendum 2: Also, re the special forces comment - this is a GAMING forum. Because we're discussing sexism in games, that doesn't mean no one cares about sexism elsewhere, they're not mutually exclusive - you don't just choose one and stick with it in ignorance of the others.
Firefreak on 18/6/2012 at 17:13
I was once told that discussions are something where questions are answered (Could have been in the context of meetings at the office ;) ). In this respect I feel that I have my initial questions in this thread answered - and thankfully received a good and constructive deal of more than expected.
With the work of Anita I found a source of information that hits the right spot for me; Not too theoretical and not too extremist/activist - and about pop culture that I share, so I can connect.
I, too, believe that change will come gradually and it will (have to) start at unrelated places somewhere. And to be part of the change I need to know about the things that are wrong, how they are wrong and what to look for. I probably wont come out clean myself - but I can start and be well prepared when it will ultimately matter: When I have to teach values to my children one day.
Regarding this thread I believe to be able to predict that further exchanges wont contain anything new as the positions appear to have been laid out and becoming fortified now. Unless there is a new pitch of questions/information that aim for constructive exchanges, I declare this thread to be free for locking if necessary.
Kuuso on 18/6/2012 at 17:41
Quote Posted by dethtoll
God you fucking people.
So basically as soon as I start getting frustrated with Subjeff because he's being fucking dense today (let's just ignore his pattern of staggering ignorance on several other topics) that automatically invalidates what I've been saying this whole thread? Nevermind the fact that what he is saying is complete bullshit, and worse it's lazy -- increasingly common with him, which is distressing because he's a smart fellow, so why's he spouting nonsense? It's the way you present yourself after you get frustrated (which usually seems to take 1-2 posts from someone) that irks me. A swarm of curse words and personal attacks is normal to your posts and make them that more annoying to read even if they contained smart stuff like in this thread.
Anyways, this is loosely related: (
http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/06/513794/), which is basically a female game journalist being treated as an inferior at E3.
Yakoob on 18/6/2012 at 17:43
Quote Posted by Muzman
I don't want to pick on you per se, but this comes up every single time some feminist opens her mouth about anything. Like there has to be some balancing of the ledger (if a woman, particularly a feminist, is observing something she must be complaining, right. Who will speak for men?!? OMG) It's not a revelation or particularly interesting unfortunately. What is though, is why so many people feel like they need to do this; like it must be made a battle of the sexes if it's not already.
Ah I apologize if that was a trite point to make but, honestly, back at my Uni, even despite taking some creative writing classes with feminism-centric lessons, no one ever brought it up. Guess just a different envrionemtn then :)
-------------
Going back to dethtolls "majorities of games are titties and dicks," I would distinguish between games "for men" and games "discriminating women." Having a macho-man blowing shit up with his BROs with huge guns and maybe chainsaws attached to them, is indeed catering to the male demographic. But it doesn't necessarily do it by deliberately discrediting or objectifying women (even if the two do often go hand-in-hand). It's more a case of overly focusing on the male and, thus, ignoring the female, rather than deliberately portraying as one superior to the other.
Games that "ignore the female angle" are not the same as games that "discriminate women" in the same sense that a movie about a white protagonist isn't necessarily anti-black. So I would agree vast majority of games are indeed male-centrict, but I would disagree majority are anti-female (but a sizable percentage still probably is). One could argue though, that "ignoring" the female angle is a form of discrimination, but seeing as gamers have been predominately male audience, it seems rather logical that this trend developed, and as gaming spreads to wider demographics, so do the games. We can already see far more casual/family games on FB, iOs, Droid than we did 10 years ago.
Does this mean we need to sit tight and wait until we naturally reach a point of equality? No, we wont reach it that easily, as Film and TV show us. But that's more a problem with the society itself, rather than games specifically as Phatose said; the medium merely reflects what the society is.
So what is *MY* stance on the Kickstarter project? Honestly, too early to tell, it could go many ways. I do hope it does more than just point out obvious sexist tropes that have been pointed out a million times before, though, and goes more indepth (like someone suggested earlier, maybe interviewing specific gamers/developers exactly about the tropes, how aware of them they are, if they are a conscious decision, etc.)
Quote Posted by faetal
So stuff like Postal 2 which has people burning women alive and urinating on their corpses
I misread that as Portal 2 and my mouth just gaped open. I only played the first and was thinking "holy fuck, Valve really upped the ante on the sequel, Jesus" :p
Koki on 18/6/2012 at 18:58
Quote Posted by faetal
Addendum: Gaming is notably worse than other forms of media for sexism.
[citation needed]
Quote:
It likely isn't a coincidence that until recently, there weren't many female gamers, and still now there are a very few women working in game dev.
There aren't that many women designing Formula One engines either. Does that mean designing high performance petrol engines is inherently sexist? Or that women just don't give a damn about it?
Quote:
You seem to be conflating the idea that human culture will never be free from gender stereotypes with that of gaming not being able to become better in this area.
You seem to be conflating the idea that men and women are equal. They are not. Two different things can never be equal. And I hope you're not so far gone to refute the fact that men and women are different.
Quote Posted by Firefreak
Regarding this thread I believe to be able to predict that further exchanges wont contain anything new as the positions appear to have been laid out and becoming fortified now. Unless there is a new pitch of questions/information that aim for constructive exchanges, I declare this thread to be free for locking if necessary.
1. If you are a mod here why don't you have a mod tag
2. If you are not a mod here why don't you go get your diploma from Shut The Fuck Up Univeristy
faetal on 18/6/2012 at 19:22
Quote Posted by Koki
[citation needed]
Seriously? Do I need to now backtrack and add pithy wiki tags to your claims too?
Quote:
There aren't that many women designing Formula One engines either. Does that mean designing high performance petrol engines is inherently sexist? Or that women just don't give a damn about it?
Gaming != designing formula 1 engines. Gaming is a MEDIUM.
Quote:
You seem to be conflating the idea that men and women are equal. They are not. Two different things can never be equal. And I hope you're not so far gone to refute the fact that men and women are different.
I'm a biochemist, I don't think men and women are equal by any stretch of the imagination, but they should be treated with equal respect. Gaming is a medium, it is as open to content as books and films are. There are lots of women now playing games hence this issue is arising because the medium is moving past its infancy where only guys would play and the women are starting to notice that it is littered with content which objectifies or alienates them. I've got £20 which says that in 20 years time, gaming content will be a lot more gender-sensitive and many of the games of today will seem like crass throwbacks in retrospect.
