Oh PETA you so crazy - TTLG Forums

heywood on 27/6/2011 at 20:55

Quote Posted by Vasquez

Obviously I can't go around checking every farm whether or not the free range chicken/cows/whatever actually live as promised - I'll have to trust the food and animal authority control works, and knowing how humans are, there probably will always be those who try and sometimes also do abuse the system. Nevertheless, I'll still rather pay a bit more for free range & ecological food than buy meat or eggs I KNOW come from the worst conditions.

And of course you can't let any animals literally "roam free" outdoors all year round in Finland - that would be cruelty - but there's a big difference whether you stuff 1000 hens in 1 square meter metal cage or if they're in a large space with soft floor, perches etc.

In theory, yes. But unless you know what standards are in place where you get your chickens from and how they are enforced, your money might be paying for little more than good feelings. For example, here is what most people probably picture when they're buying "free range" chicken:

Inline Image:

http://www.wickedfoodearth.co.za/wp-content/uploads/free-range-chickens.jpg
(http://www.wickedfoodearth.co.za/animals/) source

But reality, at least in the US, may be this:

Inline Image:

http://www.animalwritings.com/images/free-range-chickens-01-sm.jpg
(http://www.animalwritings.com/archive/2005_05_01_blog_archive.asp) source

And this passes fpr "cage free":

Inline Image:

http://www.upc-online.org/freerange/black_eagle_farm2.jpg
(http://www.upc-online.org/freerange.html) source

Aerothorn on 28/6/2011 at 02:26

What Heywood said. I totally understand where Vasquez is coming from, but (in the USA - I have no idea what the story is in Finland) it's less "you can never know" and more "you can be pretty damn sure that the conditions are horrific unless explicitly specified otherwise." That includes free-range/cage-free.

And (tying back to the main point of this thread) that is why most vegetarians are vegetarians (at least, anecdotally - I don't have a report on that). It's not that they think it's inherently wrong to kill animals, which is why the "I think it's okay to kill animals" position is not an inherent argument against vegetarianism. It's because they don't support the way animals are kept and raised, and have determined that it's easier to just be a full vegetarian than it is to ensure your meat is ethically sourced.

That said, if you do want to go the ethically sourced route, the (relatively) easiest way is to go local: find farms in the community that are known to do things right (hell, you can visit them yourself!). I've had a few friends go this root and once your figure out who's who in the farming world it's not that difficult. Of course, that's when your grocery-shopping: eating out is a whole different ball game, and outside of very special restaurants you pretty much have to be vegetarian when going out.

Vasquez on 28/6/2011 at 03:39

Quote Posted by heywood

But unless you know what standards are in place where you get your chickens from and how they are enforced, your money might be paying for little more than good feelings.

But you see, I know the standards, they are not that hard to find out. For example in Finland to get the label "organic eggs" require a considerably more space per animal - I realise they don't live the way they would live if they were wild animals, but it's still a big difference from caged hens. I'm also a member of a food circle that sells mostly organic meats, veggies etc. from local smaller farms, and when it comes to conditions of animals, smaller is most often better than bigger.

Of course, I should start hunting and growing my own food to be a Good Person, but I'm not very good at anything too practical ;)

Maxrebo6 on 28/6/2011 at 04:36

I am not one for moral arguments on this issue.But I could never go vegan since I like meat,dairy and other animal products too much.Even though as a family we eat less meat then the average American family despite my family being bigger than a family of 4.But I agree about down with factory farming.The way our nations food supply is handled is sicking.We crack down on unpasteurized milk while factory farms contaminate our food supply with disease.But that's what happens when Corporate America can buy off the government.Mind you I am one of the children in said family.