Jason Moyer on 10/4/2010 at 21:56
I have a really hard time reading something claiming that Bioware's games have gotten less intelligent with a straight face. Partially because they made several games that were just Baldur's Gate over and over again except better each time, and partially because their last 2 games are maybe the best they've ever made. Oh, and one of those was originally developed as a PC exclusive and given an inferior console port.
Pidesco on 10/4/2010 at 23:15
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
I have a really hard time reading something claiming that Bioware's games have gotten less intelligent with a straight face. Partially because they made several games that were just Baldur's Gate over and over again except better each time, and partially because their last 2 games are maybe the best they've ever made. Oh, and one of those was originally developed as a PC exclusive and given an inferior console port.
It's not that hard to claim that all of Bioware's games are worse than BG2.
NWN's campaign was atrocious by any standard. KOTOR was a game with a bad plot, bad characterization and bad gameplay given a bye by everyone because you got to be a Jedi. JE had awful, awful combat, a forgettable plot with yet another phoned in twist thrown in, and really nothing else Bioware hadn't done before, other than a threesome. Mass Effect had middling to bad combat (even if it was the best combat Bioware had designed up to that point), a huge amount of insultingly bad filler content, a crap plot, and a masterclass on how not to do exposition. Dragon Age had a crap plot, bad pace, repetitive, grindy combat, again bad exposition, and loads of bad dialogue.
Additionally, all of the previously mentioned games offered no gameplay challenge whatsoever.
Now, BG2 wasn't in any way a perfect game. It had loads of issues that could and should be addressed. Bioware hasn't addressed them, though. At best they just replaced those problems with other problems.
uk_john on 11/4/2010 at 00:50
Quote Posted by Pidesco
It's not that hard to claim that all of Bioware's games are worse than BG2.
NWN's campaign was atrocious by any standard. KOTOR was a game with a bad plot, bad characterization and bad gameplay given a bye by everyone because you got to be a Jedi. JE had awful, awful combat, a forgettable plot with yet another phoned in twist thrown in, and really nothing else Bioware hadn't done before, other than a threesome. Mass Effect had middling to bad combat (even if it was the best combat Bioware had designed up to that point), a huge amount of insultingly bad filler content, a crap plot, and a masterclass on how not to do exposition. Dragon Age had a crap plot, bad pace, repetitive, grindy combat, again bad exposition, and loads of bad dialogue.
Additionally, all of the previously mentioned games offered no gameplay challenge whatsoever.
Now, BG2 wasn't in any way a perfect game. It had loads of issues that could and should be addressed. Bioware hasn't addressed them, though. At best they just replaced those problems with other problems.
You can argue about the quality of any game in any genre from any publisher on a title by title basis, but what there is no doubt of, is that as Bioware went multiformat, they went from real RPG's (Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment and Neverwinter Nights) to standard RPG's (KOTOR 1 and 2) to Action RPG's that sequentially got more and more action based and less and less roleplaying based (Jade Empire and Mass Effect) Even Dragon Age was much more linear than any real RPG it had released in the past, with enforced fast travel to towns and quest/battle locations. While on quests it was seldom you could back track to before where the quest started, due to some rockfall or an enemy blocking your way back.
So taking a line from Baldur's Gate to Mass Effect 2 surely shows a trend from intelligent PC roleplaying games to almost Action-Adventure type multiformat 'streamlined' gaming with real third person combat as good as any TPS but dropping off, piece by piece, the roleplaying elements. Many have said that just between Mass Effect 1 and 2 you can see all the changes in the combat elements, and lots of roleplaying elements dropped. It could be argued already, that with an excellent conversation system (adventure type feature) and an excellent combat system (action type feature), Mass Affect is already more an 'Action-Adventure' than an RPG or even an 'Action-RPG' (whatever they are anyway!)
So rather than critique individual games, I would rather look at trends, and the last 10 years of Bioware have surely shown them to be moving from a PC games publisher to a console game publisher. After all, just because a game is released on the PC format doesn't mean it is not a console game still, because of features dropped.
Eastern Europe, as far as I can see, is our only hope for PC games and especially totally PC RPG's. When you think of games like The Witcher, Drakensang, STALKER, Divine Divinity 1 and 2, Arx Fatalis, Gothic, Metro 2033, Space Rangers, Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI, King Arthur the Roleplaying Wargame and others, have all been, at least, real PC games for PC players, with no 'multiformat streamlining' that we see so often from the major North American publishers.
So as a PC RPG fan, I am more interested in Witcher 2 and Drakensang 2 and Divine Divinity 2 than I am in Alpha Protocol (a 25 hour RPG according to the developers - 25 hours?) and Fallout: New Vegas and Dragon Age DLC and expansions that, on average, when priced per gameplay hour, are around 5-10 times the cost of a full game!
So we're at a crossroad with PC gaming. And with many fewer PC titles being released now, retro gaming is growing. Hence people still playing Thief or Terra Nova or System Shock, etc.
Shadowcat on 11/4/2010 at 00:55
Quote Posted by uk_john
DOSBox is your friend for TN! :)
Most definitely.
gunsmoke: If your CPU is less than 3-4 years old, Terra Nova will likely run very nicely. I'm not sure what the minimum would be, but my Core 2 Duo E6750 has absolutely no problems with all the detail settings maxed out.
The dynamic core enhancements added (or at least, brought to the fore) in DOSBox 0.70 did absolute wonders for performance in a lot of games, so if you have any other games sitting around unplayed for the same reason, you should drag 'em out :)
Pardoner on 11/4/2010 at 02:11
Quote Posted by uk_john
(Baldur's Gate,
Planescape Torment and Neverwinter Nights) to standard RPG's (KOTOR 1 and
2) to Action RPG's that sequentially got more and more action based and less and less roleplaying based (Jade Empire and Mass Effect) Even Dragon Age
Neither Planescape Torment or KOTOR 2 were developed by Bioware.
Jason Moyer on 11/4/2010 at 02:13
Quote Posted by uk_john
So taking a line from Baldur's Gate to Mass Effect 2 surely shows a trend from intelligent PC roleplaying games to almost Action-Adventure type multiformat 'streamlined' gaming with real third person combat as good as any TPS but dropping off, piece by piece, the roleplaying elements.
Mass Effect 2 has as much roleplaying as any CRPG, it just also has a hell of a lot less inventory and party micromanagement. I don't really find the lack of obsessive-compulsive loot management or the move from isometric turn-based combat to third person real-time to make the game any less intelligent, although my standards for intelligence might be different than most.
I haven't played NWN, so I can't comment on the quality, but saying that any of Bioware's RPG's has more roleplaying than a game that actually allows real-time DM'ing seems stupid to me.
EvaUnit02 on 11/4/2010 at 05:12
You seem to have completely missed the point of Neverwinter Nights. What was it a spiritual successor to? A persistent online multiplayer game that was hosted on AOL for several years.
Yes, NWN's campaign was pretty atrocious, but that was only meant as a sample. The real meat of NWN was that it was a toolbox for the community to build their own modules and play dungeon master to their own persistent online worlds. NWN filled the void in CRPGs with an integral part of the table-top D&D experience that had missing up until that point.
Tonamel on 11/4/2010 at 05:38
I seem to remember that the original plan for NWN was to only ship the toolset, but the publisher made them throw together a campaign at the last minute because they didn't want to sell something that wasn't a game.
nicked on 11/4/2010 at 10:02
Probably why the expansions were infinitely better.
EvaUnit02 on 11/4/2010 at 11:00
Quote Posted by uk_john
they went from real RPG's (Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment and Neverwinter Nights) to standard RPG's (KOTOR 1 and 2)
"Real RPGs" and "Standard RPGs"? You're throwing around adjectives with little meaning. KotOR uses D&D3 derived d20 rules, so for example it used fucking dice rolls during combat. This gulf that you're imagining between it and NWN1 is pretty non-existent, strip away the Forgotten Realms and Star Wars settings and the game mechanics are very similar.
So in KotOR you can't zoom out the camera to a pseudo-isometric view. OH NOES MAINSTREAMING SPAT IN MY CORN FLAKES
