The Shroud on 15/11/2009 at 03:28
One of the things I always wished for in previous Thief games was more control over the way Garrett uses doors. Right now you just right-click on a door to open or close it. That's fine if you're in a hurry to get through the door and don't care about making noise, but what if you're trying to be discreet and there's someone nearby who might hear the door opening or closing? It would make perfect sense in a game that's all about stealth to have a method of opening/closing doors quietly. So how about this:
When standing close enough, if the player holds down the creep key while right-clicking on a door, Garrett's body will face the door and his hand will reach out and begin slowly turning the door handle. Once the handle is turned all the way, the player can creep forward to slowly and quietly open the door. This could also be useful for opening the door just a crack to peer into the room beyond while staying hidden behind the door.
If the player ever releases the right mouse button (either while turning the handle or while manipulating the door), Garrett's hand will let go of the handle and leave the door in whatever position it's in (after which, bumping into the door should push it further open). If the player wants to quietly close the door, they can creep backward to shut the door and release the right mouse button to let go of the handle.
If at any time they decide to open the door the fast way, they can just release the creep key and walk or run forward to swing the door open on their way into the room, and then let go of the handle by releasing the right mouse button. If the door swings outward instead of inward, the process would be the same but reversed - backpedal to open the door, move forward to close it.
In some situations (for instance, when using doors with well-oiled hinges), the player might be able to first carefully turn the handle, then quickly and quietly swing open the door and dart inside, release the handle, get behind the door and swing it closed again - holding down creep at the last moment to quietly latch it shut. Doing this sort of thing swiftly and silently would require some skill on the player's part (which I see as a positive thing).
If no one's around and making noise isn't a concern, the player can just hold right-click on a door without holding the creep key and walk/run into or out of the room - swinging the door open on their way in/out, or (for doors that swing the opposite way) backpedaling first to draw the door open, then releasing the right mouse button to let go of the handle and enter or leave the room.
Since the player would now have a means of opening/closing doors quietly, AIs could be given better hearing so that they'd detect a door being opened or closed normally unless they were several rooms away. I think this would add a lot of tension whenever the player is trying to slip silently into or out of a room - watching their hand slowly turning the door-handle and inching forward or backward as cautiously as possible, constantly fearing that the slightest squeak of a hinge (much like the slightest click of a footstep in previous games) might alert someone nearby.
What do the rest of you think?
jtr7 on 15/11/2009 at 04:52
This is something few will argue against. In the past discussions about this, the scroll wheel was suggested, and in some games, was implemented. I also wish it wasn't as awkward for the player when a door opens toward the player. Less awkward interference between player and door would be nice.
Namdrol on 15/11/2009 at 07:41
And rather than looking through keyholes (see other thread, bad idea imo) peering through the crack in a part opened door makes far more sense.
The Shroud on 15/11/2009 at 09:02
Well looking through a door-crack definitely provides more of a view, although it does come with the added risk that someone might notice it if they're close enough and facing toward the door - which is good, don't get me wrong. But looking through a keyhole, while providing less visibility, does ensure no one will notice anything amiss. Anyhow, I'll leave that discussion for the keyhole thread.
Wormrat on 15/11/2009 at 15:29
Wait, so you have to walk into the door to push it open? What about opening doors from the side, or while leaning out? Those are quite easy to do in real life.
It sounds like the arm is acting like a physics tether, which I think would be quite awkward for anything other than moving straight into/away from the door. When I open a door, I don't latch my arm onto it and then move my body around; I use my hand/arm muscles.
The Shroud on 15/11/2009 at 21:40
Quote Posted by Wormrat
Wait, so you have to walk into the door to push it open?
Well, unless it's a door that opens outward - in which case you'd backpedal a little bit to draw it open.
Quote Posted by Wormrat
What about opening doors from the side, or while leaning out? Those are quite easy to do in real life.
Well, how about this - if you're standing a little away from a door that opens outward, you can lean forward and frob it, then release the lean key to draw it open. Or if you're standing in front of a door that opens inward, you can frob it and lean forward to push it open. This could also be a good way to quickly check a room without entering it - just leaning in and out again briefly to draw the door open and closed. Also, as they did in Arma 2, you should be able to turn your head without turning your entire body - so your body could be facing the door as you're opening it while you're keeping your eyes to the left or right.
Quote Posted by Wormrat
It sounds like the arm is acting like a physics tether, which I think would be quite awkward for anything other than moving straight into/away from the door. When I open a door, I don't latch my arm onto it and then move my body around; I use my hand/arm muscles.
True, but is it really crucial that the player be able to open/close doors without moving?
Wormrat on 16/11/2009 at 02:52
Yes, unless you can think of a way to open doors while standing to the left or right of them, which you haven't addressed. For example, if I want to crack an (inward-swinging) door open a bit to look through, presumably I'm standing against the wall, perpendicular to the doorway. I want to swing the door left/right across my vision, which doesn't fit with pushing/pulling the door via movement.
Also, if you have to move to open a door, that could mean accidentally stepping out of a shadow or otherwise exposing yourself.
The Shroud on 16/11/2009 at 06:00
Quote Posted by Wormrat
Yes, unless you can think of a way to open doors while standing to the left or right of them, which you haven't addressed. For example, if I want to crack an (inward-swinging) door open a bit to look through, presumably I'm standing against the wall, perpendicular to the doorway. I want to swing the door left/right
across my vision, which doesn't fit with pushing/pulling the door via movement.
the only way to peer through a door-crack is to block the door with your body while opening it, and then move to the left or right to see through the crack. What I'm suggesting makes the process much smoother and allows for a lot more control. True, you wouldn't be able to open or close a door while standing perpendicular to it, but...so what? I mean, I really don't think it's that big a deal. Just step in front of the door and open it.
If any new idea had to suddenly and miraculously allow the player to do
anything they could do in real life, in order to be acceptable - while the existing system clearly doesn't live up to that standard - then every idea would invariably get shot down, resulting in no improvements whatsoever. I can't think of a way to allow a player to do everything I've suggested
and do it while standing to the side of a door - but I'd definitely rather have this kind of control over doors than what we have now.
Quote Posted by Wormrat
Also, if you have to move to open a door, that could mean accidentally stepping out of a shadow or otherwise exposing yourself.
Well, then I guess...don't enter the room until you're ready to step out of the shadows? Honestly, is this kind of risk any different from any other existing risk in stealth gameplay? If the player fails to pay attention to the light and shadow around them, it's their own fault if they're seen.
Bakerman on 16/11/2009 at 10:46
I think the issue is that there are better ways to control door opening than movement. For example, like in Penumbra - while you're frobbing the door, pulling the mouse in/out controls how open the door is. Simple, easy. And if you let go of the frob while the door's moving, it might continue with its own momentum, allowing you to push doors open without entering the room.
Note: I made my reply to the keyhole thread before reading this. So meh :P.
Wormrat on 16/11/2009 at 15:54
Basically, what Bakerman said. I have issues with your particular method of implementation, not the idea of having more control over doors. In particular, the whole "Garrett's body will face the door and his hand will reach out and begin slowly turning the door handle" thing seems like it will constrain players far too much, effectively locking them into the proper door-opening position. That position also sounds like it would be sub-optimal for stealth.
I would suggest a combination of the Dark Mod's current implementation (frob door once to open/close it, frob it again to freeze it in place) and mousewheel control over the door's position.
Using some sort of modifier key to open doors slow/fast and quiet/loud sounds fine.
