Volca on 3/12/2008 at 18:32
Although I agree with some of the points you written, i think saying that DarkMod will be dead within 2 years is too sceptical. I see those things you mention are good reasons, but seeing how far DarkMod came - it seems logical that authors and users will be more than happy to maintain and improve it.
Even quake1 engine is used in some open source projects today, and although it's aging, it is very portable and maintainable even today. Right - there are things that will change and to which the editing tools and level data etc. will have to be bent - namely the batching issues that seem to be a hot topic today, in regards to which the quakes BSP file format is not exactly well designed. Still, the dark places quake modification implements realtime lighting, shaders, etc and performs well on modern PC's (and we're talking ~12 years old engine here?).
Edit: New Horizon was quicker :)
New Horizon on 3/12/2008 at 18:58
Quote Posted by Volca
Although I agree with some of the points you written, i think saying that DarkMod will be dead within 2 years is too sceptical. I see those things you mention are good reasons, but seeing how far DarkMod came - it seems logical that authors and users will be more than happy to maintain and improve it.
Even quake1 engine is used in some open source projects today, and although it's aging, it is very portable and maintainable even today. Right - there are things that will change and to which the editing tools and level data etc. will have to be bent - namely the batching issues that seem to be a hot topic today, in regards to which the quakes BSP file format is not exactly well designed. Still, the dark places quake modification implements realtime lighting, shaders, etc and performs well on modern PC's (and we're talking ~12 years old engine here?).
Edit: New Horizon was quicker :)
Exactly, it doesn't matter where the engine comes from...code is code. If a project creates a 'desire' then nothing short of the earth blowing up will stop the community from maintaining it. Prime example is the original Dark Engine. We have no source code, yet people have bent and twisted that poor beast into doing incredible things. It can even run widescreen, use higher resolution textures, and has multiplayer now. Three things I never thought were possible without the source code. When we get the D3 source...this community will be able to do a lot more than that.
As far as there being no Thief 4. I don't know who your contacts are, but they're painfully wrong!
sNeaksieGarrett on 4/12/2008 at 00:51
Sorry, but lol.:laff: (directed at openthief)
How pessimistic of you sir.:( The Dark Engine is about ten years old, yet people are still using it. So you saying that the dark mod will die in 2 years is absolutely ridiculous. Second, the dark mod is more or less like openthief in regards to the fact that they have the same goal, am I right? Both are to have "thief like" games, whereas opendarkengine is sort of an "update" for the dark engine. It will allow you to play thief and thief 2 like never before.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what I understand.
Also, your argument about "dead engine" is partially true, but the Dark Engine is a "dead engine" yet it's still being used through dromed! Doom 3 may also be a "dead engine," but as New Horizon already said, once they release the source code it can be updated. Just because something ages doesn't mean people will abandon it. Yes, it probably will inevitably happen some day, but that day isn't now.:)
jtr7 on 4/12/2008 at 00:58
Long live THIEF! The IF gives way to The When. Why? 'Cause, although the engine may be dead to the rest of the world, and to the industry as a money machine, it lives and breathes stronger and stronger, here! Hear hear!
Woot! \o/
And all of you people who are making it possible deserve our deepest gratitude and more!
RavynousHunter on 4/12/2008 at 01:44
I'm finding it difficult to believe that someone could be that obtuse.
I'm going to hell for this, but it must be said: LURK MOAR.
openthief on 4/12/2008 at 02:24
Reply to New_Horizon :
Without any disrespect, I regret to tell you that your talking has some misinformations, low knowledge of opensource world and video game engines history.
1. First, as you said, you must wait for source codes, you dont have it and perhaps you are even blocked because you need the source code to plainly continue. Secondly, you speak about when it will be released, if it will effectively be released without a clear date. With open sources solutions, we dont have to wait WHEN and IF the technology you desperately need will be released. I hope you are not currently sending emails to IDSoftware saying "please my lord, release the code". Third, not sure even with the Doom source code you wont need any small files from the Doom 3 CD/DVD. And of course as there are still and always legal properties, you wont even be able to distribute any small files from Doom as it will be still copyrighted by ID Software.
2. It is ofcourse very important to know who will update and upgrade your engine. In the case of mod works, the bad news is that the authors, the original studio, ID Software for example, dont do that. You didnt understand what I have said. I didnt tell an engine is not good if there are no updates. It could be good but not during a long period as others engines release new features and yours not. Just take for example the latest Bullet demo about soft bodies, fluids physics, destructible clothes. The Doom 3 engine wont be able to support all the next video game features, and you know that. It would be honnest for you just to say that. Of course, if you get the Doom source code, you will fix some minor bugs. But you should say you wont be able to add the next latest features.
3. Now you seems to be quite anxious to be in the situation to wait for the source code of such deprecated engines. OPDE could be proud not to wait for any commercial companies generosity. Even with the Doom 3 source code, I am sorry to inform that you wont be in the same situation than real open source community. As a real Thief lover, I have played your mod. I have seen that major parts are in placed. But this is absolutely not a reason to be so proud of it. It is just a mod, even with lot of works for which I congratulate your team. But I said, it is a short term solution with a death approaching for sure. Every engines coming from the industry disapear days after days, which is logic.
4. Now you seems to consider that a starting project has nothing to say to a mature one. Well it is just a poor point of view. A small real open source project like OPDE can be much more proud than a mod project. Globally, pretty everything was done in Doom 3. On the contrary, as Volca said, OPDE started from scratch. So it is sad to be so proud of your mod. Above all, it is actually illegal to compare real open source projects to mods. Now just rethink of the team you have when you work with open source middlewares : say Ogre 50 guys, say Bullet 15 guys,... Does IDSoftware going to reply to your questions/support requests ?
5. Now the community ofcourse will forget the Dark Mod and others mods even if they dont want to. Simply for example when they will see that it does not work on their latest video card or on Windows Seven, ... Or simply because nowadays they dont want to buy/reinstall Dooom 3 game. Or simply because they want to see nice fluids physics in your game, or some kind of motion retargetting like Natural Motion Euphoria. The problem is that the engine behind mods are days after days more and more poor compared to the latest one.
6. OPDE is a real long term project, like openThief project. There is non sense to do mods except if you accept the death of your mod. Contrary to mods, we (OPDE and OpenThief) can have an eternal and uptodate graphic engines, a next gen physics engine... Just like mods projects, we dont need 4 or 5 years to have the engine and latest features. They are already there, ready to be used, and alive.
7. To conclude, it should be honnest from you to say to the coders reading us that Mods games like Dark Mod are not viable long term solutions. Now, I must admit there are more works to do in our projects than in a mod project like yours. It is probably more difficult. But this is the only long term solution. Now perhaps in some months, you will think of a bridge between the Doom SDK and an open source solution. But I doubt it will be feasable to link Doom code with a third party middleware.
Have a nice (day || night).
openthief on 4/12/2008 at 02:42
Reply to volca :
Well you are right, 2 years is perhaps sceptical. But even 3 years. Just imagine what will be the video game in 3 years. What will looks like Dark Mod or other mods compared to the latest version of Ogre and Bullet games ?
Well Quake 1 games is a good example. I am not sure that New_Horizon is conscious that Dark Mod will looks like Quake 1 game in some years.
Moreover, the ID BSP format is not perfect for a Thief like game. The Collada should be better. Quake 1 engine has became so poor perhaps because it was simply released from a company at a time where it was too late to update it...
-So do you confirm the original T1/2 level format has to be updated ?
-Could a .miss file be converted to .collada or .mesh file ?
Cheers
jtr7 on 4/12/2008 at 02:43
Personally, I view all of these projects as different stages of Thief's future. DromEd for now (T3Ed needs more users with stable systems), overlapped by the coming of the next satisfactory engine/editor, overlapped by the next--and so on--so that Thief is getting translated to the newer tech, in spite of the most current industry standards. As long as future Operating Systems will execute the code, and as long as there are those who can keep the code viable, Thief will live on, in several forms, but Thief it will be. When an engine/editor can no longer be used, there will still be options.
We love the Dark Engine just fine. Out-dated has nothing to do with our love for that engine. In fact, some of us think it's pretty cool that it's still going strong, and stronger all the time. If the Dark Mod is still usable and as easy to work with as it appears to be, the community will keep it alive as long as there are computers that can still run it.
jolynsbass on 4/12/2008 at 04:54
I just checked out the openthief site, and I was amazed at the lack of anything there. No screenshots - no FAQ - no Help page - no download. In fact, about the only thing there was the short tasks list, and I quote from it:
Quote Posted by openthief site
TO DO :
- Today, the main task is to find a lead coder/admin for openThief. As a professionnal coder, I have no time enough for a serious work on OpenThief. I will give the admin password with full rights to anyone with a serious resume. Send email to [email]openthief@hotmail.com[/email]
- a simple task should be to search for a ready to use, mature and alive engine including : Ogre : graphics engine PAL : Physic Abstraction Layer Fmod : 3D geometric sound
- another task should be to start to write an UML diagram for OpenThief Engine.
Retrieved from "http://openthief.sourceforge.net/mediawiki-1.6.10/index.php/Shorttasks"
Note that he still hasn't chosen an actual engine... but that should be a "simple task" - since someone else has written all of it.
I submit that the so-called "professional coder" hasn't written line 1 of any code yet for this project, and that he wants someone else to do it all for him. Hence, he is taking only "serious resumes".
I'm not sure he's even a programmer at all.
jtr7 on 4/12/2008 at 05:02
Maybe he should name two or three games he's done significant work on.
