Myagi on 8/12/2008 at 16:07
Quote Posted by qolelis
I
think there might be a significant language-barrier at work here. If Openthief's posts are machine-translated
that bodes well for something requiring team work, communication being an integral part and all that. the project is doomed.. I mean ogred.. I mean.. ah screw it ;)
Renault on 8/12/2008 at 16:33
I agree with Displacer - what exactly is the openThief project? Is it really only a concept at this point? If so, what exactly is the concept that isn't already covered by either TDM or Open dark engine?
More power to someone if they want to start up a new project from scratch, and recruit a team to help them. However, if they can't do it without bashing existing projects, to hell with them.
eddy on 8/12/2008 at 16:33
Quote Posted by openthief
The source code release was and is still not sure.
John Carmack said several times that the doom 3 source will be _definitely_ released.
Quote:
I had an interview with ID and they even didnt know/try the middlewares usually used in industry. They are quite closed mind.
Most game programming related middlewares that are used in the industry are closed source. Id isn't using these since they don't want to block a source code release or their games.
I really don't get it. To me it seems like you're just another zealot promoting his favorite frameworks/libraries (Ogre and Bullet). There's more out there. The world is just not black and white. And an open source release of the doom 3 code doesn't make it "bad" open source, as you seem to think. Open source is open source. No matter where it comes from.
While you seem to promote open source quite a lot I've not seen a single line of code from you in you're SVN.
Also if you're really so much into open source, why do you choose an employer that doesn't even allow you to tell your name? This just doesn't fit together.
I bet that Ubi makes contracts where they state that everything you write in your free time is their property.
Schwaa2 on 8/12/2008 at 16:37
Wow openthief,
You have conviced me, I'm abandoning ship!!!
Darkmod will be dead in 2-3 years 'cause the engine is dead. I had no idea. Thief 1 and II only made it 10+ years with not much more than new textures and objects.
Oh, and the love and devotion of a community.
I have made some stuff for the Ogre renderer (a yet to be released indie game) and it can do amazing things. It is a great open source project with many libraries to add to it to make an engine of your choice.
I know even of the open Morrowind project being developed to run indepepndently of the Morrowind game itself (and that engine is dead for sure).
But not only do you need the base tools and code but you need many art assests to complete a mod.
I good majority of the art assests being used for that are custom assets that were made years ago for Morrowind (my stuff included). It's not like that is being created from scratch.
I wish you luck but you have alot of work to do and you obviously need to research more.
Yeah, Darkmod might be dead in 3 years, but I seriously doubt this community will be and that's what has kept the almost antique DarkEngine going for all this time. Obviously knowing your base helps, nobody has quit building or playing missions for Thief because we don't have fluid dynamics yet or ever.
sparhawk on 8/12/2008 at 16:39
Quote Posted by qolelis
I
think there might be a significant language-barrier at work here. If Openthief's posts are machine-translated from Bulgarian into English (and vice versa), a lot of nuances can be lost.
I'm not sure what there would be there to be lost in the first place, but giving you the benefit of doubt, you
might be right, but considering what he wrote I'll doubt it.
Quote:
I like the
idea of the OpenThief-project (as suggested), but, as Displacer pointed out, I am not sure what it is you want to give away (or build a team around): Do you want to give us an idea? Do you want to give us the research you have done on which engines to use? Do you want to give us code or other resources?
I really don't see the point of this project. Especially not at this time. I don't even really understand what that guy wants to do, and apparently that's not me alone.
Creating a new stand-alone thief style project? What's the point of it? TDM is already there. The open source bit is not really an argument at all. Carmack already said that he will release the D3 code when the last project is done and he is known to be true on that. Of course we are using some assets from D3, but that's only a minor part of it, so the open source argument doesn't make sense, because it would be far less time consuming to put work into porting these few assets if this is really a problem for some.
That the D3 engine will be outdated at some time is a strawman argument at best. People will work on it and improve it, just like they do with the other engines. If you {he} thinks otherwise he should have a convincing argument for that, because the past shows that he is wrong and there is no reason to assume that the D3 engine will be treated THAT differentely by the people then the other engines before.
Professional games based on the D3 engine are also mods, so the argument about the engine being to old is quite stupid. When Id came out with D3, other companies, just lizenzing it, will just have started, and a four year period is a normal development time.
So for anybody who wants to have an independent thief clone, it would make more sense to invest his time into TDM instead of a new project that is just starting up, with a project lead who didn't create more than an empty web site and already starts to whin that he doesn't have to do more, but he graciously will hand over the admin password. WOW! What an achievment!
Creating an engine to preserve existing Thief missions? Volca is already doing this, and he seems to do a good job at it. If I would want to invest time into that, than I would rather help him, than instead of starting on a new project doing the same (see above).
And the people who acclaim such a project as a good extension because more Thief is better, that's not really true here. We are not just talking about a few new maps. We are talking about a project that will bind manpower for many years, and the endresult will be what? Something that already exists in one form or the other and will be incompatible with each other. I don't think that the thief community would really win something out of this, except yet another engine that does the same, and where poeple have to learn the different methods they can not share because of the differences.
In my opinion it would be much better to put that energy into helping the existing projects instead of splitting up the community a bit more which results in less progress in total.
If the D3 engine would be really so badly written that it can not easily be extended (which I strongly doubt), it would make sense to move to a new engine in a few years, maybe five, maybe ten or more. Otherwise it makes more sense to improve the engine(s) that we already have and which already has been done.
qolelis on 8/12/2008 at 17:54
I have said my part in this; what is said is said and what is not said is not said.
New Horizon on 8/12/2008 at 18:37
Quote Posted by qolelis
With that said:
I like the
idea of the OpenThief-project (as suggested), but, as Displacer pointed out, I am not sure what it is you want to give away (or build a team around):
The thing I find most ridiculous about this, is that Dark Mod
IS an openthief project....but our Ubi programming friend here is adamant that we're some closed sourced, out of date, dying, unusable, mildly amusing project...simply because we have to wait for the D3 source code for a short time.
Openthief has indicated that he/she hadn't heard of the Xreal project. A project that has updated the Quake 3 Engine code to D3/Q4 standards...and beyond. The argument openthief presents is weak. My argument is not that native open source engines are useless, my argument is that 'commercial engines' that
become open source are every bit as viable and sustainable as an engine that is born of the open source community. To say otherwise is pure ignorance. Code is code...regardless of how much of it you have to work with. We have accomplished all of our work 'WITHOUT' the full source code.....think about that for a moment! Imagine what we'll be able to do when D3 is 'fully released'. All of this negative focus on what are temporary circumstances. Once the full source code is released....they can and will be eliminated!
As for the video...it proves nothing. Anyone, and I mean ANYONE with half a lick of sense could have thrown that together in an hour. All we see here is an imported stationary AI model in an engine demo. Whoop'de'doo. We could have done the exact same thing with doom 3 the day it was released. No access to code is required for that...it's basic modding.
As for me coming back to the conversation. I changed my mind, I have the right to do that.
Openthief, do your research. Our team looked at many open source options, and they held no great benefit over Doom 3's technology. The Thief community isn't concerned about cutting edge graphics. Sure, we do want things to look a bit better than Thief 1 and 2, but gameplay is first and foremost. If you or anyone else plan to be successful with an openthief project, you have at 'least' 5 years ahead of you...if you start coding today that is.
Best of luck.
242 on 8/12/2008 at 20:03
The fact is that TDM is light years closer to finished product allowing to create and play "next-gen" Thief missions than anything else.
Without many professional programmers working full time, I guess that OPDE won't be able to play OMs/FMs before like 2020 or even 2030. It's my opinion based on what Volca wrote earlier.
And this new project is in an absolutely basic state it seems, if compared with TDM.
clearing on 9/12/2008 at 03:31
Quote Posted by 242
I guess that OPDE won't be able to play OMs/FMs before like 2020 or even 2030. It's my opinion based on what Volca wrote earlier.
:tsktsk:
Displacer on 9/12/2008 at 03:32
Grrrr
