Azaran on 5/5/2011 at 09:20
By now that woman's probably dead :(
heywood on 5/5/2011 at 09:33
Quote Posted by demagogue
The revealing statistic that stuck out to me is that 85% of Osama's victims have been local Muslims. I think a lot of Americans, on both sides ("they really hate us" & "we brought this on ourselves") BOTH are flattering themselves to think the US's actual policies or even existence as a concrete political system has much to do with this kind of extremism at all. They want to level violence against liberal democratic elements in their own culture first of all, and at most you might say the idea of America and the idea of American soldiers in the Middle East gets sucked into that preexisting domestic tension.
I mean, they invent their own mythology of America they lash out against (the conditions here in Afghanistan are really bad no thanks to you Manhattan CPAs), then we (or I should say "many Americans") invent a mythology of Islamic extremism to meet it (they must really hate us; as if they had any clue who "we" are, which I'm sure they don't) ... So it all gets completely derailed from reality.
I don't think these extremists have any real clue about American politics and are focused on their own local politics or very narrow concerns, which happen to use "American soldiers" for their own purposes. Trying to bump this up to some universal level is a mistake IMO.
Extreme Islamic politics as I understand it is mostly about things like "Who do we want on our local school board? I don't want my kids reading *those* books." (And goodness: if some US soldiers are in a neighboring country, there's no telling what my child might be forced to read.) Issues like that became intolerable for some sensitive Muslims, so (after killing a lot of liberal Muslims in their local area) they conspired to bring down the World Trade Center. Fucking great. If they were in a democratic system and could swallow the idea of pluralism they could have just written a fucking letter to the editor of their local newspaper or had a voting drive at their local supermarket. (I just mean to say, even if their rhetoric aspires to be about some global war, I think their actual mindset is very very narrow to the world directly around them.)
By the same token, I don't see why the Americans need to have some existential debate just to respond to passions ultimately grounded on things like local Afghan school board elections and their very narrow worldview & set of concerns. They should get their act together and figure that out for themselves. Our task should just be security for our own people, no more, no less (which should probably include "No gratuitous adventuring" don't get me wrong). I just think we're flattering (or deluding) ourselves to turn this into some epic existential debate about what America means to the world when it's really about very local concerns and "America" is just as much a meaningless slogan to them as terrorist has become for a lot of our local politics.
Where did you see that 85% statistic? Most of the al-Qaeda attacks I've heard about are against non-Muslim targets.
Also, your post seems to portray bin Laden supporters as uneducated dimwits who misdirect their anger over local politics and schooling into violence against America. I think you're underestimating them.
Islamic fundamentalists have goals as diverse as any other large demographic group. While I'm sure that most ordinary Muslims are focused on "close to the home" issues like schooling, they are also not terrorists. The people who are primarily concerned about their kids reading the wrong books and such are not the people who travel to foreign countries to train in camps and fly airplanes into buildings.
The people we have to worry about are the ones with larger, more strategic goals. Such as the Islamic clerics who preach about a global jihad or clash of civilizations, and promote turning Europe into an Islamic continent via immigration, breeding & conversion. For these people, America is a symbol of their religious and cultural antithesis, the main exporter of opposing values, the main supporter of Israel, and the main supporter of repressive, anti-Islamist governments in the Muslim world.
Note that we pretty much left the Taliban alone at first. We thought we were on somewhat good terms with the Afghans after supporting them against the Soviets. Also, Afghan society has traditionally been inward-focused and the Taliban didn't seem intent on exporting their Islamism. And we had a common enemy in Iran. But look what happened - the Taliban played host to an entity with larger aims who struck out at us globally. My point here is that we can't assume we're not going to be targeted even if we leave everyone alone. I don't want to engage in "gratuitous adventuring" or be global policemen (e.g. Libya), but there is still a militant global Islamic fundamentalist movement that isn't going to go away.
Koki on 5/5/2011 at 10:54
Quote Posted by Azaran
By now that woman's probably dead :(
She should be, who flips off with their right anyway
Gingerbread Man on 5/5/2011 at 14:33
What kind of person only releases one bird at a time? WE DO THINGS TWO HANDED OR NOT AT ALL MADAM
CCCToad on 6/5/2011 at 00:13
I'm not exactly sure what pretend democracy is either. Where did that come from?
Queue on 6/5/2011 at 02:08
Wasn't that something from the Sims?
catbarf on 6/5/2011 at 02:10
Quote Posted by heywood
Most of the al-Qaeda attacks I've heard about are against non-Muslim targets.
That's the point. Most of the Western media goes wild when an attack is made on American or British targets, but Al Qaeda car bombs a bunch of civilians in Afghanistan and nobody bats an eye.
Tocky on 6/5/2011 at 02:14
A pretend democracy is one where you hold a vote then carefully count them and throw them in the trash to make up your own number where you won so unrealisticly that your people go WTF and protest and then you shut down the internet and shoot them.
Quote Posted by heywood
Where did you see that 85% statistic? Most of the al-Qaeda attacks I've heard about are against non-Muslim targets.
I don't mean to step Dems toes but it was quoted on NPR. Nearly every time they splode it is in the midst of muslims even when that isn't thier main target however in Afghanistan the police force is a constant target and they use terror frequently in Pakistan to control the political process among other stuff elsewhere like suddenly shooting into crowds of people aid is meant for so they can round it up and distribute it to thier soldiers and things like that. Truely stand up guys.
How did I miss nd in my last post? I was sleepy. And she looks even better in a jacks me up.
Queue on 6/5/2011 at 02:34
Tocky's been drinking, too. HAVEN'T YOU!?
