demagogue on 6/5/2011 at 18:51
I get the feeling the Obama administration would be just fine with droves of people thinking it's a hoax, because then the whole issue blows over and disappears relatively quickly. He gets whatever political capital going into the next election and has a counter on the "weak on foreign policy" argument, but nobody is yammering up in arms about American unilateralism or the death of Osama because the most potentially passionate people are already conspiratorially predisposed to just not believe he's really dead. Kind of a no-lose move for him.
Or to put it the other way around, the types of people the photo really matters to are the conspiratorial crowd, and those are *exactly* the people you don't want to arouse any interest at all... So just ignore them and the whole thing starts to fade away. They go off believing whatever the hell they want, which largely means back to normal life because Osama must not be dead, and everybody else goes back to normal life because he is.
Queue on 6/5/2011 at 20:01
Yeah...right...
Al-Qaeda says he's dead. YOU CAN'T TRUST THOSE MUSLIMS! *spitting on the floor*
nickie on 6/5/2011 at 20:40
:) Bit of polish would do nicely now.
Tocky on 7/5/2011 at 03:30
Quote Posted by Muzman
Broadly speaking yeah. Bob's good fun in a rabble rousing sort of way. There's plenty of good arguments for just disposing of him as they did, but I do think it'd have been somewhat more excellent to do something more proper.
As big a diplomatic minefield as it surely is, I really like the idea of giving him back to his family. It's both gracious and respectful (he was someone's son, someone's (many people's) brother after all) and it's kinda rubbing Saudi Arabia's nose in what is essentially their mess and reminding the whole world of that at the same time.
Your serious? People actually believe that shit? He remembers no gladness when Hitler was finally known to killed? What fucking bunker was he hiding in? People were happy as hell all over so you better ask somebody who knows how to do something other than lie. After Linclon was shot the south was beat down starving but clung to honor which was all it had left and Boothe was surprised to find himself a pariah. Ask any historian. This Bob spouts shit and people are licking THAT up?
Saudi Arabia renounced Osamas citizenship and Sudan ejected him. As for his family THEY DENOUNCED HIM PUBLICLY. They never liked him or his mother and since his father was dead there was nobody who- ah hell, you mean his wives don't you? Anyway Bob is no journalist and The Drum must be some sort of National Inquirer sort of rag. Bob is sort of the far other end of fox news. But people buy into this shit? About the only truth was the CIAs stupid Castro assassination attempts which were not as many as he stated but still happened. What a blatant speculating liar he is otherwise though. I'm afraid I might live down to his expectation of me if I ever met him just for the fact nobody should get away with spouting that much lying anti-american bullshit in a publication no matter how sordid it was or how drooling stupid it's readers were.
And I haven't much respect for the CIA either.
Oh, okay. I just read the comments below and realized Ausies think Ellis is a nut too. Eh, that blows the rest of my rant. Seriously though, reckon he's on Al Quedas payroll? I mean, I always figure Rush Limbaugh is bought and paid for by US corporations so who bankrolls him to spout ludicrus crap? What would thier agenda be? I know what corporate agenda is but his baffles me.
Edit: this guy is particularly factual and dispassionate-
Quote:
Bin Laden, as the leader of al-Queda, which is engaged in ongoing hostilities against the USA, is defined under the Geneva Convention as an "unlawful combatant" and therefore a lawful military target. The Geneva Convention accords no rights, protections or legal standing to unlawful combatants. They can be summarily executed without trial.
By issuing "kill or capture" rules of engagement for the operation, Obama actually elevated bin Laden's legal status to that of a "lawful combatant". This meant he could be killed in a lawful military operation provided he had not surrendered. We are told bin Laden did not surrender which seems reasonable considering he was a fanatical Muslim jihadi. The SEALs confronting bin Laden, having engaged in a firefight downstairs, could reasonably assume he may be armed, had access to a weapon, or possibly explosives that he could initiate to take everyone out in a blaze of jihadist glory. His failure to surrender immediately was reasonably assessed as resistance and continued hostile intent that presented a threat so he was shot and killed. This was a completely legal killing under the terms of the Geneva Convention.
While the jingoism surrounding this incident is unedifying it should not colour critical thought. Much of the outrage being expressed by commentators appears to be based on the fact that US Special Forces conducted the attack without Pakistani knowledge and bin Laden was unarmed which of course was unknown until after the attack. I doubt they would have made such an issue of the matter if bin Laden had been killed by the Pakistanis or in a US drone attack. The double standard reveals either a complete lack of appreciation for the gritty reality of tactical military operations and the Geneva Convention or anti-American bias or both.
Muzman on 7/5/2011 at 04:47
I did say broadly speaking. And I didn't say his families nose, I said Saudi Arabia's nose (his family might give him straight back, who knows. It's the principle of the thing). Whatever anyone thinks of celebrations (not a big fan, me, but whatever) I don't think you can compare then to now anyway. Not least of all because they were more reserved times (which is kinda why VE day was such a big photo op) and he's not a world leader of a nation but a mass murdering super-villain type. Don't buy assassination talk either. You don't go to that much trouble to just kill a guy. It's too risky. They were keeping their options open.
Bob's a pretty seasoned campaigner with a lot of experience and sensible and humane things to say, mainly on local issues. But he's kinda like your grandad lately. Every now and then he goes off on one and you just gotta let him wear himself out and get back to where his main contribution is.
No one should give a shit about columnists of any stripe anyway. Fussing over Syndicateds and Op-Eds and opinion pieces has been the death of journalism. Most evident after 9-11 with the endless back and forth over pointless minutia. I mean I like Christopher Hitchens and Susan Sontag. I don't really care to read the endless back and forth week after week, commentary on commentary on commentary, play by play analyses of the war of words. The media love it! They can kill loads of time, fill loads of space just talking about talk. Editorialising has taken over from actual news.
No one should pay any attention to any of it, let alone waste their time being outraged about the fact someone wrote whatever it is that's annoying you or I this minute. Don't give it any more power than it deserves.
Tocky on 7/5/2011 at 06:08
You know the one thing NOBODY has mentioned? Tora Bora. Osama got away there. These highly trained seals had that hanging over them like an axe. What if he somehow got away into the population of Pakistan? He had been there for who knows how long and who knows what escape plans and routes had been worked out for just this circumstance? We second guess these guys without understanding the pressure they place on themselves. They HAD to take him. We had failed before and could not again. They were duty bound and damned determined and this is as much a war as any ever no matter how others may portray it.
Do you recall the shot made from a moving deck of a ship to the moving deck of a Somali pirates kidnap boat at, what was it, 600 yards? a thousand? more? And through a portal about a foot wide? These guys are concentrated kickass and determined beyond what normal people have any conception of. Look up what they have to go through just in the weeding out process. These guys are so exceptional in determination that armchair quaterbacks simply have no idea. They could die at any moment but I guarentee you all they are thinking about is completion of mission and any failure is a humility they cannot countenence. I just can't second guess them as easy as others do. I suppose there could be a shoot to kill order but until there is actual evidence of it I side with mission objective split second determination in favor of certainty of completion. From my experience it's how the military operates once the nuts are weeded out. If your life is standing in the way of winning a conflict then it isn't worth spit. You are a dead motherfucker.
Koki on 7/5/2011 at 17:32
Quote Posted by nickie
:) Bit of polish would do nicely now.
HOW RUDE
Rug Burn Junky on 7/5/2011 at 17:42
Once again proving that strawmen are solely the realm of CCCToad's posts.
Hint: On the left, Mike Malloy is considered a fringe lunatic. On the right, he'd be Rush Limbaugh and there would be serious discussions about whether he was the leader of the Republican party. See why there's a difference? Of course not, because you're, as always, a fucktard.
CCCToad on 7/5/2011 at 20:41
You know, they say that the ability to detect sarcasm is a mark of intelligence.
If thats true, you are the brightest man ever.
