Azaran on 3/5/2011 at 02:32
That's not a typo. They did that on purpose.
During the last US election, I heard they had special instructions: whenever mentioning Obama, they were required to always mention, and ideally emphasize, his middle name "Hussein".
Fafhrd on 3/5/2011 at 02:43
Quote Posted by fett
How is it that so few can watch the chanting crowds outside the White House and see EXACTLY THE SAME THING as on 9/11 in the streets of Arabic communities all over the world
This is the stupidest false equivalency
ever.
A: Osama Bin Laden was not an innocent human being and subject to an unprovoked attack.
And B: I seem to recall the arabic celebrations on 9/11 being proven to have nothing to do with the attacks within hours of them being reported on. Ah, (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_holidays_in_Pakistan) here we go. September 11: Death Anniversary of Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah.
Queue on 3/5/2011 at 02:50
When did bin Laden become Predident? Now I'm confused. :mad:
Muzman on 3/5/2011 at 03:14
It does strike me as somewhat distasteful. I guess I'm more surprised than anything. A few years after the event it would have fit. But now it seems like too much blood and ink spilled on his account to be anything more than relieved. Crowing over someone's death kinda willfully ignoring the moral malaise of the whole business.
But, what do I know. I was interested to see that apparently Obama and co watched the whole thing live Clear and Present Danger style (or was it Patriot Games?)
Also, someone said he was preparing another video at the time. I was hoping they'd find a set dressed as a cave in the basement or something.
Tocky on 3/5/2011 at 03:26
Quote Posted by fett
Here's what will NOT come out of this: A hard look at American foreign policy. We've hopped into bed with every potentially dangerous religious nut between the Ivory Coast and Afganistan for greed, power, and the mis-guided notion that we can fix things. That pisses people off, and rightly so. Especially when we leave them hanging once we get ours and get out. We keep fucking with people, people who are crazy mad enough to fly planes into buildings, and no one ever seriously examines why that might be, other than to call them crazy religious nuts who hate freedom and enjoy playing chicken with skyscrapers. Like Sting said, "History will teach us nothing."
The examination of cause and effect is so fucking warped in the U.S. that no one can stop cheering "USA!!" long enough to realize that we did this shit to ourselves. How is it that so few can watch the chanting crowds outside the White House and see EXACTLY THE SAME THING as on 9/11 in the streets of Arabic communities all over the world.
Fuck me. I'm moving to Canada. :mad:
Before you go lets's examine it. Just a timeline. After Nam we were stung by Soviet support of the north and Cambodia and it seemed were losing the cold war. It's joked about now but the Ruskies were some hardline scary talking we will conquer the world guys at that time. Then Charlie Wilson got us to support the Afghans which gave some balm and truely helped a people oppressed. So we thought. We were blamed for not sticking around and nation building which is what we ARE blamed for now.
The Taliban moved in and totalitarian oppressed like a motherfuck. The northern alience of tribes fought them but were losing. We did not want to get involved. Osama trained his terrorists to bomb our embasies and ships and troop barracks. We lobbed a few ineffective cruise and called it a day. We still did not want involvement. We just wanted to do business in the countries with oil. Hell, they can't drink the oil and we need it and they need money right?
We were willing to work with the current governments whether we liked them or not. Saddam was an enemy of an enemy so he was a fr... wait... he's gassing his own people? We start to back off. Oh crap he got tired of having his ass handed to him by Iran and invaded Kuwait. We squash him. Osama is pissed we soil his country as a staging area with our helping. And yeah, we still won't let the islamic nations wipe Israel off the map. We figure we are there- you are here- everybody get along and there won't be any shit. We mix and share ideas. The world isn't segmented as it was and there is still the leftover stigma of our not getting involved till way late in WWII so we minor adjust rather than major war.
To Osama and the we hate you to death no matter you help or not because you are infidel and soil our sand with your presence so go away until we can muster enough followers and end enough independent thought that we can conquer you too praise Allah crowd nothing we could do other than blowing up Israel and going home to await the eventual takeover would do anyway. He can't wait though. He TAKES IT TO OUR COUNTRY KILLING THOUSANDS OF INNOCENTS ON PURPOSE. The hardline islamists cheer and the apologists simper. It was our fault. Well fuck you it wasn't.
We tried to help those countries who showed an interest in friendly relations. We tried to mediate between intransigent Israel and Palistine. We damn well saved Kuwaits ass and helped muslims overcome Milosovec. We TRY. We fuck up and we have our own asses to look out for and we aren't perfect but we don't colonize and when we conquer we give back. But hey Osama has a point we should just take 911 up the ass right? WE DESERVED IT. Fuck anyone who thinks that.
So we side with the northern alience and kick ass in a one on one fight where you don't hide behind womens skirts. Sure, sure, we didn't give them equal weaponry. Then brilliant leader takes a bridge too far with his white lie womd. We hemmorage money and unlike the brilliant lefties stated we don't suck up all the oil and piss on the warring factions it took a ruthless fucktard like Saddam to keep apart. We still get blamed for trying to do right. Well yeah, we should have just left like Afghanistan... uh, that didn't work either. We got blamed for leaving.
The fact is the whole region will ask for your help then blame you for helping because you aren't supposed to be there but just standing at a distance throwing money at them but just the right thems even though they are all equal assholes so they will help those trying to kill you is that about a fair assessment? So now we have some people not bowing their heads in proper reverence and daring to celebrate the death of a complete asshole which we buried with repect although his followers would have beheaded us and drug our bodies through the street. We had to go into a country that is supposed to be a friend and kill him without warning so they wouldn't warn him from the military complex down the street or intelligence agencies and we cannot show gladness that our navy seals are some badass fuckers who know what to do when somebody points a gun. Well fuck I'm happy. One more down.
Is it the end? It will never be at an end as long as there murderous power hungry asses looking to enforce thier one and only view on everyone else and the only view that would work is tolerance but that is the one they cannot tolerate.
37637598 on 3/5/2011 at 04:03
What Tocky said. was gonna say that exact same thing
Tocky on 3/5/2011 at 04:04
Come on man, why do you think I went to such extremes if not to get a response. I don't agree with all of what I said either because there is the mitigating presence of secular decent muslim people but adress some of what I said. Your time is not precious and no matter what gif you use you aren't fooling anyone. You're just lazy. Lazy ass.
Uh... wasn't aimed at 3763andothernumbersguy. Plus I think fett knows I was general fuck youing unless it gets him to post some amazing shit like he does sometimes and in that case then fuck you I want to hear it... except tomorrow because I'm mad as hell and I'm going to take it because I'm also sleepy and want to go to bed.
Muzman on 3/5/2011 at 05:38
The thing about all these interventions, which a lot of the time can indeed be seen as having the best of intentions or at least being geopolitically understandable, is that the devil is really in the detail. That's where the resentment accumulates over time.
There's that recurrence of getting in to a situation, not wanting to get involved too much so instead supporting the opposition because they are are ostensibly against what the US is against, then getting dragged in fully anyway. This opposition also frequently turns out to be questionable if not arseholes of the highest order as well. You can see that pattern pretty clearly from Vietnam on down, if not earlier in some lesser cases. Why it keeps happening starts to become somewhat mysterious.
Then there's the situation on the ground which seems typically fraught with bureaucratic bungling, not listening to intel from the the people in situ, extraordinary arrogance, ignorance and insensitivity from officers, to say nothing of the occasional stupidity and bad behaviour of grunts. The grand and simple themes trickle down into widespread and extremely variable behaviour and a hell of a lot of the wrong people get hurt/killed along the way.
Hey, a military is a big and complex thing. It's nigh miraculous it's as organised as it is. But just as some might wonder why Arab nations don't always see the big picture of what a US intervention is all about, Arab peoples are likely to personify US military behaviour in the way they hear about or encounter it . Like anyone really. So we can't be too surprised that some feel that they might prefer it if the good intentions were taken some place else. (although I have been kinda amazed by some people I've seen on telly and such. Like Iraqi folks whose village was wiped out by errant artillery fire or such, explaining through tears for their dead relatives that they don't blame the US military for making a, frequently really really stupid, mistake. Truly amazing character I doubt is all that common there or anywhere).
Things brings me to the topic of apologism. There probably are Americans who do think the US was due for a hit because it's a bad place and deserves it. But I don't think they make up many of the people who said ten years ago that the US 'had it coming', or words to that effect. By and large that statement is made in reference to the building resentment that's been happening over the previous decades. That's generally what they're talking about, I find. Some people can't countenance those terms and find it tantamount to excusing the act, but I can't agree with that. Two wrongs still don't make a right even if they explain each other. I think the idea is only troublesome for people who do find summary violent retribution morally justifiable and thus the perpetrators can't be allowed any grounds for their case at all in their minds otherwise it'll shift them from being entirely in the wrong.
Anyway, I've said it once or twice. I probably wouldn't now, especially not in those words. A lot's been learned in the intervening years and it's worth noting that of all the people who might have had an axe to grind with the US, bin Laden's was the most piss weak of the lot. I just about laughed when I read more about it. That he would exploit other peoples' rage and malaise to do his bidding somehow makes him even worse than everyone else who's done that in history. It's that thin.
Lastly, I'm far from an expert on US military interventions. Maybe if I were these patterns of bungling might make more sense. We talk about trying to do good in the world. Trying to support the spread of democracy and justice and so on. I believe this was the intent just fine, but it so often produced the opposite. I don't know what to do about it. Some people have pointed out that these revolutions show that people can spread democracy pretty well by themselves without the need for any supporting of murderous factions or dictators or general wrecking of countries. Even when that's not the case, people can resent the big guys coming to town and telling them what to do. Maybe staying home is a better idea. But, while others might be asking for help, what needs to be remembered is that the US frequently gets involved elsewhere in the world on the pretense of its own interests as well. I'd say that part is actually necessarily in keeping with the 'American philosophy' for any action being taken at all. I'm going to speculate wildly that this sort of defensive and self serving posture at all times has meant an escalation in just how hands on it needs to be and how big a show it needs to make, or thinks it needs to, for its own peace of mind.
Assuming that's the case, I guess we can blame the cold war for a lot of it. But along the way something went missing. What hand did the US's democracy spreading have in the Arab revolutions? Seriously, I don't know. I'd be happy to hear of some. Once it was the height of clever manouvering to merely supply Czech and Polish dissidents with a printing press and paper. Where did that sort of thing go? This operation we're talking about seems like a pretty smart and subtle affair. I'm sure others still go on. It'd be good too see brains outweigh brawn for a while, I guess is what I'm saying. It'd be worth weathering a bit of "damned if you don't" for that I think.
